Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - Managing for both trophy bass and bluegill

Hey guys I am actively trying to manage my 3 acre pond for trophy largemouth, and bluegill simultaneously. Do you believe this is possible? I've read a lot, and understand the importance of a stunted bass population and it's role in growing giant bluegill. Can both be done. I'm feeding my bluegill as much as I can, practicing suggested selective harvest of the bluegill, and providing plenty of forage for the largemouth, crawfish, fatheads, golden shiner, and trout in the winter. What are your thoughts???

Also, what do you think of substituting the stunted largemouth with stocked hybrid striper???

Discussion with some other wise fish managers concludes that you can PROBABLY do this IF you feed the fish best quality protein foods and PROPERLY aerate the 3 ac pond so it gets at lest one complete turnover per day; better is 2 turnovers per day for the main basin. .

One pellet size for growing BG and also feed the 2 LB+ bass the hand throw type of high protein pellets. Pellets for the BG grows the 10" BG and the hand throw 1" pellets help in growing big bass where it helps take predatory pressure off the the BG to better create the 10" BG. For growing the best fishery it is often recommended to have one automatic feeder per acre of water. Less than that expect less than the best results for the type of fishery that are your goals of 1 pound BG (10.3") and 8 lb bass (23.8") .

Comments regarding growing larger bass. With proper feeding and aeration do not expect to have more than 30 total bass over 5 pounds (10bass/ac). IMO I don't think you will be able to have more than 2 "top end" bass at 8 lb in 3 ac assuming a normal number of 4lb, 5 lb, 6lb,and 7lb present and coming "up" to replace the natural attrition that will occur of the largest oldest LMB in a system. The population structure PER ACRE of the mature BG-LMB fishery (of 5-6yrs) if you do all things correctly would be something similar to 6bass@4lb; 5@ 5lb; 3@ 6lb; 1or2@ 7lb and 1@ 8lb. And If you are lucky 1@ 9-10lbs for the 3 acres of water. This all assumes that you carefully manage the numbers of 10 oz to 1 pound bass to provide adequate food to keep these larger 5lb+ bass growing properly each year. Example - A 7 lb bass needs to eat 50-52 pounds of fish a year to grow to 8 pounds. The challenge is can you manage the fish foods and correctly manage the fish numbers per year to accomplish your goals?. Time will tell the rest of this story.

LMB do not live forever especially if anglers do not know how to properly handle big old bass to minimize handling stressors while the bass are unhooked and released. Anglers will likely kill your largest bass from latent or delayed deaths due to improper handling. Body slime removal kills lots of fish despite the fish swimming away. Body slime is the fish's defense of fungus, bacterial and virus infections. Despite the obvious, the biggest oldest LMB are not the strongest most durable bass in a pond.

Another important piece of the puzzle for growing big bass is learning to correctly handle the large LMB once caught. You don't want to grow them large, then injure or even kill them by handling them incorrectly once they are caught.
A. Use a rubberized net, don't grab them by the lower jaw.
B. Use two hands to support the fish to take it out of the net. One on the lower jaw, one supporting the back 1/3 of the fish.
C. Do NOT let it flop around on shore or in the bottom of the boat - that removes the slime coat and opens the fish up to infection. Doing that is basically a later death sentence for that big fish even if it appears okay as it swims away. Body infection with fungus and bacterial growths takes one to two weeks to take its toll on a big fish.


A pond owner in Texas that has a 35 acre trophy LMB "lake" has a few rules. Break the rules, and you cannot fish in the pond. 1) Barbless hooks. 2) Support the fish with 2 hands. 3) Net the fish, keep the fish in the net in the water while you figure out what you are going to do next. This is important because of the next step. 4) The fish can only be out of the water for 30 seconds max. If you want to weigh the fish, leave the fish in the net, weigh everything and then weigh the net after the fish is released, don't hang the fish by it's jaw or worse, the gills. Texas Share Lunker has had LMB come in with broken lower jaws because of poor handling, and the fish never recover. Loss of body slime coating almost always eventually kills fish from various types of mishandlings.

I want to address some of the Spicelane comments.

Repeating From Spicelane -.

The bigger that fish gets the more likely it can die when mishandled by you or someone else. People and most all anglers do not realize what all it takes in time, money and daily effort and management to grow trophy fish (bass) unless they have grown trophy class fish in a pond. Truly big trophy fish just don’t happen easily by stocking small fish.

Some of my posted comments were “pond rules” used by a Texas pond owner who is actually spending lots of time and big money to grow some valuable trophy bass 10 - 13lb. Those are his rules as noted by "esshup" to protect his fish and not just my rules; although those are very good rules. Some of your Spicelane comments lead me to believe you would not be welcome to fish in his trophy bass lake.

Firstly you “twisted” and exaggerated my words to make your points. Go back and carefully reread my wording in my post above. I use words of "likely", "minimize" "reduce" and NOT the definitive words of "always", “definitely” and "will kill", and "30 sec out and it dies". I am not basically saying EVERY weighed bass dies as you accuse. FYI - there are published studies of tournament caught bass and the survival percentages that are available. One just has to know how and where to find that published information. Tournament LMB survival percentages were studied and the results showed it does depend a lot on the techniques of each angler after hooking the bass.

If someone does not believe me and does not like my bass handling suggestions then see and learn from the other “experts”.

Bass resource =

Vermont Fish Specially See 7:00+ min.

https://www.louisianasportsman.com/...r-catch-and-release-handling-techniques/

Rereading From Spicelane -.

You are correct that largest bass are often LESS likely to bite and IMO this is because a big percentage of their siblings have been harvested or killed thus the “hook smart” ones are still alive with good survival experiences.

Initially and through the years the weaker ones were maybe not so fortunate as you may have hopefully learned from your current angler experiences. If one actually owns a pond where it took numerous years to grow big fish, and use daily fish watching activity at their pond, the angling experiences do teach some good useful information about latent fish deaths after the fish being mishandled. Experience is a good teacher. My suggestions were mainly for new or inexperienced pond owners with goals to grow some trophy fish.

Grow some big trophy class or state record fish and you will realize what I am talking about regarding the importance of handling of really big angler hooked valuable time involved fish. They just don't happen automatically. Try it and learn.

Science to back the claims.
Spicelane says - “I've caught the same 6 1/2 lb bass multiple times over multiple years based on distinct marks the fish has, that fish has been photographed, probably hit the dock and is still alive.”

Readers should remember that you are an ‘experienced’ angler. SOME of your lucky fish could have “hit the dock and still be alive”. Initially, the unlucky and weaker bass may not have been so fortunate as you were learning on your journey of angler behavior; be it what it seems to be.

However some of your past angled bass may have died and you never realized it because you did not actually own each bass and watchfully and monitor each of those fish’s activities for 2 -3 weeks or longer period after released. One fish example does not make the all inclusive rule. For fish, especially big fish with even mild hidden damage, it sometimes reduces or eventually reduces their ability to eat properly, maintain a healthy slime coat, they then lose weight, become weak and other resultant health problems can easily lead to an early death.

Remember the pond owner’s goal for my post was for growing and maintaining trophy bass in 3 acres where the trophy sizes will eventually amount to just a couple fish 7 lb to 8 lb; maybe one of 10 lbs. Make an unwise handling mistake and all the valuable time and cost for that time invested trophy is lost. Consider all and what have been lost. If you don't actually grow those trophies one does not realize the rarity and value involved. The lucky most durable fish will likely survive some mishandling. Remember smaller fish better tolerate mishandling compared to the oldest mommy bass.

NOTE - Not all fish float when they die. I have had a cage full of fish die and all laid on the bottom with only a few to eventually float.

Spicelane - you are obviously not like the teenage angler who I saw last week drag a 1 lb bass a hundred feet on the GROUND back to the tackle box for someone to help take it off the hook. This type of behavior is something I was trying to prevent for a new pond owner who is wanting to try and grow BIG bass that will take 7 to 10 years of time and effort to produce. That is a lot of time and big expense to lose for a simple careless mistake that could have been prevented with a little education or some basic angler rules or caution. Much better healthy and alive than sick or dead.

Peer reviewed published science says some bass are uncatchable and this trait or tendency has been proven to be passed on to the next 2 tested generations. If you carefully read a past Science & Cutting edge article by ewest in PBoss magazine you would know or have read about this science based article that had a literature reference. Individuals in that population of bass in that research were found to have different amounts of "intelligence" or willingness to bite lures. Some bass as your example mentioned will repetitively bite lures. Those fish I interpret as dumb and possibly most aggressive ones will repeatedly accept angler lures, while some on the other extreme of the spectrum never bite a lure and were considered smartest or most cautious bass. Some uncaught bass of the original population was allowed to spawn. Next subsequent generations produced larger percentages of no bite bass. I can look that reference up if you need to have it.

A wise man (whose identity I am unwise enough to have forgotten) recently stated here that "you can have a lot of little predators and a few big prey, or a lot of little prey and a few big predators" (or something to that effect).

You can get big BG by feeding and having the number of BG reduced - in three acres, lotsa small LMB are your best bet for that.

IME HSB are not as good a predator for BG as LMB are, BUT you can get great big HSB via feeding. Consider small, crowded LMB and trophy BG and trophy HSB. I think you could do that.

Just to add to the above posts, water quality, correct cover in the pond for the fish (both LMB and BG) and having the correct SIZE forage fish in the pond for the LMB will be your main things to watch for. Ponds need roughly 20% of the surface acreage in cover for the fish. Wintertime means cover in deep water, summer is shallow water. Without cover for the LMB to hide in and ambush their prey you will be growing marathon runners, and they don't weigh a lot.

Correct size forage fish mean fish that are 1/4 to 1/3 the body length of the LMB. FOR EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES. 4" lmb = 1" fish. 24" LMB = 6" fish.

If there is enough forage fish of the correct size in the pond the LMB will grow fast. I've had customers follow our recommendations and have had 3" LMB stocked in early April be 13" by early October.

Do your research on the fish food pellets. You want a feed that will NOT cause fatty livers, which leads to premature deaths. You want a feed that fish will metabolize, not a feed that they only metabolize part of it and the rest of the feed passes through the fish to feed underwater plants, phytoplankton and algae. Stocking feed trained LMB will help you. Maybe towards the middle of year 2 but definitely by year 3 look at the Sweeney Big Mouth Feeder or the feeder by Texas Avenger that can feed the handthrow pellets (1" dia pellets). You probably will need to get at least one of those feeders if not 3.

Good water quality means no stressors on the fish. No low O2 events, no big swings in pH, No boiling hot water during the summer. (think of shade for the pond). Having the correct alkalinity will help greatly.

An electroshock survey every other year will tell you a lot about the fishery without educating the fish to angling tactics.

If it was closer to Halloween.....

... one could try pumpkin spice bait.

jpsdad - I would also put this cut fish bait information in another appropriate topic; one that more reflects angling for fish. This would spread the information over a wider span of PB Forum and not have it hidden within another topic. Your bass catching using a form of cut bait is interesting information that might enlighten a different way to catch bass. Dead bait has been found to work pretty good for for NP - pike especially in late winter - early spring. I suggest that your described method be used numerous times in several ponds to provide more confidence and reproducibility to the different type of angling bait / method.

]A pond owner in Texas that has a 35 acre trophy LMB "lake" has a few rules. Break the rules, and you cannot fish in the pond. 1) Barbless hooks. 2) Support the fish with 2 hands. 3) Net the fish, keep the fish in the net in the water while you figure out what you are going to do next. This is important because of the next step. 4) The fish can only be out of the water for 30 seconds max. If you want to weigh the fish, leave the fish in the net, weigh everything and then weigh the net after the fish is released, don't hang the fish by it's jaw or worse, the gills. Texas Share Lunker has had LMB come in with broken lower jaws because of poor handling, and the fish never recover. Loss of body slime coating almost always eventually kills fish from various types of mishandling.

This is a customer of mine and a friend. His "pond" is 35 acres, and he's put 10's of thousands of dollars into it, if not over $100K. It is stocked with Share Lunker Bass that he was able to purchase at an auction. Annual stocking of threadfin shad, etc., etc. There have been multiple TV shows filmed there, you just don't know it. His pond, his rules and I agree with him. This "pond" is fly fish only except for rare occasions, and the pond best LMB on a fly rod is in the low teens. I caught one that was just shy of 10#.

If you are invited there, either you adhere to his rules, or you end your fishing trip early and are never invited back. Spicelanbass, once you start dumping that kind of money into your pond, how would you feel if someone came and didn't follow your rules?

Jpsdad I have been using cut bg and whole bg for LMB for quite some time usually on a jug line….. works good

jpsdad,

It may not be so much that your son's bait was right for LMB, but his "timing" was right.

I expect the water in your pond is quite warm now. The bass may have moved deeper, and are now hanging on the bottom. Further, they may have lost most of their good ambush points that you have created for them in shallower water. (They probably move into shallow water to feed around dawn.)

So now they have been trading off comfort against getting easy meals. Lo and behold, your son chucks a tasty meal right into their laps. Not many bass will skip a free meal!

(All of the above is just pure speculation on my part, based on bass switching from their spring pattern to their dog days of summer pattern.)

I handle fish nearly everyday in large numbers. The suggestions are merely to maximize survival by minimizing potential health issues.
It's not a cut and dried deal but error on the side of caution provides the best possible outcome.
It's a numbers game that includes a very substantial amount of time, labor and of course cost- a very substantial monetary investment that most anglers are never exposed to.
I have no dog in this fight here but I respect the judgment of the owner's requests and I have enough experience in fish handling, including State tournament mortality studies, to say this is a very realistic request.
FYI, Tourney mortality studies show 20-30% mort is about the norm.. by collecting random fish from these tourney's and held in controlled conditions, often times it exceeds 60%.

Hey Spicelanebass...you're in a row boat next to a battleship. People still think fish, pecans, and watermelons are free. They're not...when a bass makes it 5 years in a pond, it deserves your best. Proper handling of fish is important. Cody is right on, so is Scott. It only makes sense to handle fish with care. Will holding them by the jaw kill them? Probably not. But the bigger the fish, the heavier it is, the more stressful its weight becomes out of water. Look at it like an over-filled plastic grocery bag. Pick it up by the handle...likely to break. We support our groceries when the sacker over does it...we hold a big bass by the jaw, don't crack it back, support the belly with wet hands.