Been looking at this a while. It seems pure strain Florida is not generally recommended this far north. The fish struggle or simple do not handle the winters. Is it possible that even if they don't do well that they could survive well enough to breed with my northerns and create F1's?
If I were to throw in some F1's would they breed with my northerns and create some hybrid vigor?
What about stocking some northerns from a fishery that has selected brood for good relative wts? I believe it's considered good to add genetics to a pond for genetic diversity.
You guys with experience... what's your thoughts? Is there a best way to go? I'm very south in KS, just above the OK border.
There is a lot here on the topic using the search feature. This has been widely discussed and is highly disputed regarding the genetics. I have seen no info that outbreeding depression occurs in any study where several strains of LMB have been stocked. In fact, there is a natural overlap in zones where all occur and many studies with no mention of outbreeding depression. See map below. Outbreeding depression usually occurs where 2 different species have been crossed not where the same species (very closely related genetics) are crossed. I am aware that others have a different opinion.
IMO it would be a mistake for you to use Fla LMB in Kansas. I am not sure I would even use F-1s. Not because of the crossing issue but because of poor performance outside of the south. There is a study done in Okla. on Fla LMB and offspring and the results were not good where the waters iced over.
As for the St of KS, Flas don't make it here. When temps get below 55 for very long they just don't do well. On the Map, the NW circle is Cedar Bluff res in KS. Fla's were stocked in 94, 95 and 96. All were tagged. No tags were ever reported, returned or caught by state sampling methods other than eletrofishing in the year they were stocked.
I was just reading an old study from my "saved" folder on a test of Florida LMB around Ardmore, OK (a little north of the Texas border). It may even be the study that ewest was referring to.
As a gross generalization, the study indicated that the biggest northern strain and biggest Florida strain were about equal at that location.
As regards "outbreeding depression", I would trust ewest's advice far ahead of my advice!
Overton Fisheries does carry a "branded" version of F1 LMB. (They are about 1/2 way between Dallas and Houston.) I believe Todd? Overton sometimes comments on Pond Boss and some of the people here that have worked with him say he is good at answering questions. You might try to email him during a slow period of their business and see if he can tell you how far north their F1 bass have been an improvement over northern strain.
Looking at the photos, I think we have some experts on the forum that could correctly identify them by visual inspection alone. However, I would have very low confidence that I personally could correctly differentiate the fish. (I have caught too many LMB on the same day that had broad color differences.)
FishinRod you are not alone! I have never met or heard of an expert or otherwise Fisheries Scientist who thought they could id a Fla or Northern or F-1 by visual inspection alone. Most will tell you that the only sure way is through DNA testing. I have seen info about counting lateral line scales and such but have no faith that it will give an accurate result.
From a previous Cutting Edge - all you should subscribe to PB mag.
Dispersal of hatchery bass ranged from a low of 7 meters at days 7 and 14 to as much as 2,010 meters at day 14. Hatchery bass dispersed rapidly during year 1, when 63% were recorded more than 400 meters from their stocking site after 1 week. In year 2, hatchery fish dispersed to greater distances than did wild fish. Dispersal was limited by the size of the lake (1400 meters in diameter) for many hatchery fish. Some individuals eventually swam around the entire lake and ended up near their stocking location by the end of the study period. Substantial numbers of hatchery fish emigrated from the lake to an adjoining lake (23% emigration).
Total movement for hatchery fish in year 1 ranged from 11 meters for a bass tracked for 4 days to 6,005 meters for a fish tracked for 18 days (334 meters per day). The maximum distance traveled by a hatchery fish was 3.03 kilometers in a 24 hour period, which included swimming the distance of the lake into an adjoining lake. It was confirmed that this was a live hatchery bass (and not a tag being carried off by a predator) by capturing it with an electrofishing boat.
The LMB suppliers on my list that are close to you are:
Harbin Fish Farm Culver's Fish Farm Hartley Fish Farms (I don't know if they are still in business.) Wallace Fish Farm
Moving to Oklahoma:
Moore's Fish Farm (east of Tulsa) Dunn's Plus others farther away.
I know nothing about the genetics/quality/service of any of the suppliers above.
Of course you always have Snipe (Kenny) at Aquatic Specialties as a valuable resource. He does not currently raise LMB. However, he may haul some LMB to eastern Kansas for a client at some future date. You might send him a PM with your contact info. If it ever works out that he is hauling less than a full load, it might help everyone to have him take a split load to your pond. (It never hurts to ask!)
Good luck turning your good bass pond into a great bass pond.
If I recall correctly, your pond is still producing LMB > 20" and is well over 10 years of ages. So the first thing I will tell you is that "This is the exception ... and ... this is awesome". I think part of your success lies in the fact you have a good amount of water ~19 acres. This reduces littoral area/surface acre and probably lends to less LMB recruitment. So environmentally, your pond has been able sustain the production of memorable to trophy size LMB from recruits. It's not clear to what these results depended on population management efforts and whether you faithfully culled to reduce competition. But if those efforts in past were not significant ... it tells me that population management remains as a possible way to increase LMB size and RW.
So you have a good thing going I think and I would seriously question whether you can improve the genetics in your pond by introducing hatchery fish. The opposite may actually be true and it is possible that you could set your pond back by introducing new fish. Consider reading this reference beginning on page 9.. There is a wealth of information in this publication pertinent to Kansas as it was written by Kansas fishery biologists to plan Kansas fishery management in Kansas waters. Though pertaining to Kansas, there are also lessons for everyone entertaining the idea of introducing new genes to their water. But in particular I will reference two small excerpts:
Quote
Fisheries managers sometimes assume that introducing new genes into a population through stocking will result in increased growth, survival, or other superior qualities (ie. hybrid vigor). Unfortunately, this is not always true. In some cases, the resulting population may exhibit a lack of fitness to their environment (outbreeding depression) (Philipp et al. 2002). Outbreeding depression results when the progeny from parents with different genetic makeup have lower fitness than progeny from parents sharing the same genetics. In this case, adaptive genes in wild populations are displaced by genes that are adapted to some other locality or environment.
Quote
Future Actions
Stocking largemouth bass will be necessary to establish the species in new and renovated waters in Kansas. However, it would be irresponsible to introduce fish with no regard to their genetics (Philipp 1992). The introduction of FLMB alleles into NLMB populations may have provided fisheries benefits in southern states, but little published evidence exists to suggest that they would be an asset in Kansas waters. Our limited experience with FLMB in Kansas shows that their performance (and that of the hybrids produced by their interbreeding with NLMB) is poorer than that of NMLB.
There are lots of good peer reviewed studies on the topic. Philipp is one author but there are others and not all of them agree. In short take all info with a grain of salt (caution). Philipp's writings as well as many others are one reason, I suggested against stocking FLMB/F-1s in your location. But just as important are the results of others in your area as well as common sense experience. I do know of some instances of success with mixed genetics in states with similar latitude over a decade +-. I think those to be an aberration and I would not suggest that others would be as lucky. While genetics are important, they are only part of the story. Proper management including lots of food in the right size for your goals are more likely the key.
I suggest you call Bob Lusk as he has had decades of experience with the subject in question all over the country. He took some Inslee fish - see below to many locations and had success. There are other good sources. Greg Grimes found me some Il. sourced Northern LMB and they have done well in the south.
I live in Wichita KS and stocked my 4 acre pond with Overton's F1 LMB as well as some of his hybrid striped bass. Here is my data from when I can remember to take them. My normal depth is 14-16 feet and am down about 10 feet since it hasn't rained since 1974, but let's hope May is fruitful.
2022 5-1 17 inches 50 ounces possible spawn extra fat. Five feet off of shore. Perch lure. 7 pm 6-17 17 inches 37 ounces STRIPER green with black dots. Gold spinner. Middle of pond 6-21 17 inches 15 ounces white mepps. Moved to Javier pond
2023 4-1 18 inches 52 ounces (white mepps gold spinner) extra fat. Spawn? South side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water. 4-1 16 inches 34 ounces (white mepps gold spinner) South side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water. 4-2 15 inches 27 ounces (green rooster gold spinner)North sidePond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water 4-2 18 inches 51 ounces (green rooster gold spinner)extra fat North side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water 4-2 15 inches 31 ounces (green rooster gold spinner)North side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water
We have a (usually) live creek. It dried up this winter, but has been flowing this spring.
We have had essentially no rain on the farm since January. However, there were two heavy rains to the west of us within the watershed of the creek. It is very impressive how that water has been stored in the region's sandy subsoils and slowly released over the following 8 weeks!
Great. If I may make a suggestion, it would be to have some deep water when your combined pond is built. Really helps during droughts!
I am running the well 6 hours a day to keep it 'leveled' off. But if we don't get rain by June, then I won't be able to keep up with the evaporation and I'll likely go dry. The only benefit is that the neighbor upstream will go dry and I won't have crappie, GSF and bull head cat to deal with. I am working on adding a TON of cedars and other trees this month. Once it fills up then re introduce BG and supplemental forage of tilapia to make it to next year.
Let it rain!!!!
Originally Posted by anthropic
Originally Posted by FishinRod
blavis,
Thanks for all of the recorded data.
Hope you get some rain soon!
I am a little west of you and have two completely dry ponds and one that is only 1' deep.
(It is now quite easy to "sample" the fish in all of them.)
Rod, that sounds even worse that what we had last summer in east Tx. Do you plan to start over when the ponds fill?
I am running the well 6 hours a day to keep it 'leveled' off. But if we don't get rain by June, then I won't be able to keep up with the evaporation and I'll likely go dry. The only benefit is that the neighbor upstream will go dry and I won't have crappie, GSF and bull head cat to deal with. I am working on adding a TON of cedars and other trees this month. Once it fills up then re introduce BG and supplemental forage of tilapia to make it to next year.
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