Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - Hybrid striped bass and walleye, when to add

Hello all, just built a new pond last nov. it's one and one fourth acre, 22 ft deep with a 10 ft wide, 5 ft deep channel down the middle that makes it 27 ft deep in the channel. I filled the pond from a creek on the back side of my property, filled with a 2 inch trash pump. I stocked the pond with 11 pounds of fathead minnows last dec then added 20 more pounds in February. In April I stocked 10 lbs of golden shiners, 215 yellow perch, and 100 red ear sunfish. I also added 5 dozen creek chubs, 6 dozen craw dads, from the creek below the pond, same one I filled the pond with. A friend has been catching shiners and minnows ( he calls them blood shiners and ozark minnows) from the Nianga river in southern mo. About 10 dozen of these.
I now have thousands of minnows in the pond. I have been feeding them Optimal Jr and a special lab mix that Dustin from Optimal said would really turbo charge these fish (90 dollars a bag) and man it really turbo charged em ! The perch were 2-3 inches when stocked, now they are 8-9 inches. Shiners were 2 inches and are now 4-5 inches and about 2 inches from back to belly. Don't know how big the red ears are because I haven't seen or caught any. The fat heads are huge and spawning like crazy. I am assuming that the perch are putting the hammer on the fat heads because i see a slight decline in their numbers, and when I feed them something comes up and slams em.
I want to add hybrid striped bass (25) and walleye (25) I was wondering if I should wait until the perch spawn before adding?
I am in no hurry cause me and the wife really get a kick out of watching the minnows feed every evening, 4 cups of junior, 2 cups of the lab mix, one cup of sportsmen choice, all eaten in about 15 minutes.
I waited on adding the perch and red ears until the minnows spawned and the I hoped that by the time they were big enough to eat the minnows, the minnow spawn would keep ahead of them, seems to be working.
Question is, when to add the stripers and walleye.
Thanks
Gregg

Come to Pond Boss for expert advice,

and people give you inseine solutions!

Just sent Bill some pics of a HSB a friend caught out of my pond this evening, I sacrificed it to see what it has been eating. I sent the pics of the fish and it’s stomach contents to Bill and he said they were GSF, YESSSS!!! There is hope after all!
Thank you very much Bill and everyone else who pitched in with all your knowledge, this site is absolutely amazing! Looks like if I can keep removing the larger GSF, my babies ( HSB ) can keep the youngsters under control.

Number of HSB to have present and them growing fast has really a lot to do with goals for how big or top end size do you want the largest HSB to be. If you keep thinning out the largest ones, maintain most of the top end size numbers around the 3 - 5 lb range and replace with ladder stocked individuals then probably 40/ac is okay. The more HSB present in the 6-10 lb weight range, this puts unsafe fish biomass stress on the ecosystem. 30/ac HSB at 8 lb each (24") equates to 200 lbs of predator per acre. IMO this is too high predator biomass on the pond system. Ideally safe predator weight per acre should be around 100-150lbs/ac , maybe with good aeration and watchful management 200 lb/ac of all predator species - IMO. If it were LMB based this would be 50 3-5lb bass per acre.

Long term it will be very helpful if you keep a written record of numbers stocked, when stocked , and the numbers and lengths harvested. Have your roommate keep the records; she's probably the main angler. It is a numbers game. Also pay attention to relative numbers of shiners at pellet feeding time. As their numbers visually noticeably decrease harvest more HSB per year and reduce ladder stocking numbers to allow the shiners to repopulate.

Surviving young of year YOY perch should be in the 4-7" range each fall and early the next spring. Have your angler - fish in shallow areas with pieces of worm on long shank #10 hook under a bobber 3-6ft deep. This will catch good representatives of small fishes present. This can/will also catch some small - medium HSB. Keep records of sizes of individuals caught and time fished. One hour a week in enough during the warm season. This helps determine small fish relative density and overall fishery balance.

Bill,
Thank you very much for the knowledge and advice on my fish and pond. I will definitely be removing about 10 of the larger HSB this fall. I added more structure yesterday, it’s about a 40 foot ash tree, I put almost on top of another one from the shore towards the middle of the pond, just trying to make it a little denser and thick for the fry to get some cover.
I did see quite a few YOY about one inch long, just can’t tell at this time what they are, I assume they are GSF. As I said before, I really don’t mind them now, kinda fun to watch when the HSB hit them while feeding, and you are absolutely correct when you say they will move into the shoreline to feast on them, those HSB are wicked fast!
There are still quite a few of the bleeding shiners and ozark minnows, I like seeing that, even if they don’t last long. I also have some sort of shiner that has a turquoise to blue back, they about 6 inches long, also came from the Niagara river in southern missouri. I don’t expect them to reproduce, but that’s ok, it’s worth a try. I am getting ready to have the dam covered with 6-8 inch rip-rap, probably going to have it extend into the water about four feet for safety and cover for hopefully some spawning. I have no vegetation growing in the pond except for a few cat tails. The pond stays an emerald green most of the year, visability is about eight to ten inches, ain’t gonna get much sunlight for the plants. The crawdads nip them off before they really get a foothold, looks just like someone walked around the pond with scissors cutting them off. I have people stop by and ask what kind of dye I am putting I the water, neighbor down the road still thinks I am dying the water…..
I just want to thank you and everybody else for your guidance on my little project, I am going to try like hell to make this stocking work!!!
Thank you again for your time and expert advice
Gregg

I stocked SMB and HSB last fall. They aren't big enough yet to take on a full-grown northern crayfish.

Or a seine.....

The RES that I put in my lake, never are caught. But I know they are there because I catch them in a cast net and 1 time in 5 years I caught one in a trap.

Given your focus on predators, a prey fish that reproduces abundantly but rarely get large enough to be off the menu "might" not be so bad. I will offer you this encouragement. Generally GSF cannot attain the standing weights that BG can. In an OK study, the maximum standing weights of GSF and RES were comparable but BG standing weights averaged comparably to their maximums. BG average standing weights were more the 5 times the average standing weight of GSF. Some members are battling BG in their ponds with YP, be thankful you do not have their problem.

What gives me the greatest concern is how the GSF will affect your YP. So far your YP are growing well and I think as long as YP condition is good the adverse impacts of GSF are non sequitur. So that would be the guage, I think. Are you getting YP recruits and is their growth good. I like tj's suggestions of trapping and repurposing. If sufficient, it should reduce the competition and benefit both GSF and YP growth and condition.

I'll offer one last piece of encouragement. GSF are among the dumbest fish. They just can't learn. When hybridized, the resulting hybrids are just as stupid. So eager are they to take a bait or lure that they can dominate the catch in waters where they are not the dominate prey fish. This can make one think they are more plentiful than they actually are. This eagerness to bite can help you catch them ... the tendency to find cover can help you trap them. Enjoy your pond in spite of this twist to your plans.

jpsdad, in answer to your GSF question, the answer is yes. At least in 1 pond.

Pond is 1 ac. Stocked with FHM, GSH, YP, RES. 2 years later when the owner wanted to stock SMB, he asked me to do a fish survey prior to stocking to see if there was enough fish to support SMB as predators. There was an amazing amount of GSF in there, all 2"-4", even the GSF that were 2.5"-3" were gravid. There were absolutely no FHM in there, and the GSH, YP and RES were all the same size - none of the stockers had any fry survive. The pond was then partially drained and rotenoned, then restocked.

Owner had the pond dug in a wet spot in the woods, and they didn't sterilize the water. Spoils from the excavated pond were piled around the pond and spread out to eliminate any water from the woods to enter the pond. Sandy soil, high water table, the pond filled up from the groundwater seeping in.

FishingRod,

With regard to the debate on (preference/successful encounter), I find it refreshing to see well thought disagreement on the matter. IMWOT, both are good enough ideas to be relevant. I am reminded of a paper I read about predation where curves were described involving probability of success and the energy content of prey. The combination of these curves reflected a hypothesized probability of capture (the realization of prey consumed) and is a curve closely approximating actual consumption as recorded in wild fish samples. The author proposed that the inverse relationships were both relevant resulting in prey frequency peaking at optimum balance of these two factors. The point is ... neither idea is sufficient on its own to adequately describe what is observed to naturally happen ... and yet ... each may be relevant (especially in combination). An environment that allows the free expression of dissenting ideas is always superior to one of rigid consensus. The world is often more complicated that we would like and it works in ways that are not always black and white. It is often only predictable probabilistically where allowance must be incorporated for uncertainty.

As I know carp/suckers, normally suckers will not readily come to the surface for pellets although carp will quickly learn to pellet feed on the surface. I think your carp/suckers are carp. When they were feeding on the pellets did they appear to have wide bodies? This suggests carp. The most common sucker is a white sucker round elongate bodied fish. Goldish brownish hue also suggests carp.

I would debate this comment with Lusk. I have performed some fish feeding studies in college and when I was in an animal behavior class. I contend a predator can learn from experience that fusiform was an easier meal. Thus I say the predator will often choose or prefer a food if given a choice. Give the predator a little credit. Granted “prefer” is an anthropomorphic term (human attributes). Although at least some educated animal behaviorists use the terms choose and prefer when describing animal behavior. See Preferred Animal Behavior in the link below.

Predatory fish including those eating meat, even in terms of panfish preying on invertebrates, have numerous times been shown and reported to selectively choose, prefer or key-in on a certain type of forage food item despite other foods being readily available. This I think is where "match the hatch" phrase came from. Choice of lure size shape and or color that resembles the current food being eating by the targeted fish is another confirmation that predators will key-in on and choose, prefer or select certain foods compared to other similarly easily available items.

Trout have been shown to select a certain insect shape and color versus another insect each side by side and each being the same effort to capture. This may and may not be closely related to relative abundance of food items. I have fished many times were you need to match what the fish are eating on that day to catch a fish or more fish than your partner !. Walleye in Lk Erie during the mayfly hatch gorge solely on mayflies despite small fish and shiners being very abundant also eating mayflies among the walleye. Walleye stomachs were full of mayflies rarely fish. So were walleye more successful eating mayflies or were they focused on eating mayflies? I say, that day, walleye were choosing and preferred to eat mayflies and not the just as easy to catch small fish among the walleye. Plus those choosey WE had to expend more energy and time to eat a lot of mayflies to equal the weight reward of eating one small fish.

Also what about pellet eating fish, such as lets use a 12" LMB as an example. The bass will choose / eat and expend more energy eating several pellets instead of expending less energy / effort of sucking in a 1.5" or 3" BG right beside or in front of the bass. I also see same type of behavior in pellet feeding my big yellow perch and my snapping turtle. You may have also seen similar fish behavior in your pond. Sit still, watch and learn.

See Case Study 2 using honeybees. Choice – Preference behavior
https://www.nature.com/scitable/kno...references-and-choice-behavior-23590718/

Commentary. However in my comment above about GSF eating lots of YP, the GSF are not necessarily selectively choosing to eat YP over another food. The GSF are basically eating anything that fits into their mouth and at certain times of the year, YP fry are abundant and mostly the only or primary food available so it gets aggressively and heavily consumed. Amount of refuge habitat can minimize the losses. Aggressive, competitive, greedy and availability being the main behaviors of the predatory nature of GSF and IMO not so much choice or preferred feeding as it relates to YP living with GSF.

Glad to try and help. The concept has merit and possibilities but the how to is uncertain. There are a lot of talented/smart/knowledgeable members here - a whole lot more than 3. Some have "book smarts" , some have decades of extensive actual experience and others have some to lots of both. If you ask all the knowledgeable posters I think the consensus would be that we are not sure there is a expert here on any subject with the exception of Bill (on all matters plankton). Everyone of those talented/smart/knowledgeable members will tell you there are far more questions than answers and that there is likely no one correct answer - we just don't know. One thing to keep in mind is there are a lot of visitors (many non-posters) who know little, that are looking for help and like doctors we have to be careful to do no harm (lead them to misunderstood conclusions and bad results).

The way it works now is unstructured , as you would expect given all the characters and approaches. The Mods and talented/smart/knowledgeable members watch the active topics and chime in where they want. Most times there is no need IMO for 6 or 7 knowledgeable people to chime in if they agree with how one of their compatriots addresses a topic. Especially on subjects that have been addressed (see archives) numerous times. Sometimes we just say "we agree" or " + 1".

Thoughts ?

You should be somewhat able to monitor how well the HSB are controlling the greenies. The partially decomposed GSF eaten looked close to 1.5 to 1.7" long as original sized fish. Use cloverleaf fish traps to sample how many GSF that you are able to catch each fall during a week or set number of days of setting a consistent number of traps. Keep track of how many GSF that you catch. As the numbers each year goes up or down will give you a good indication of how many greenies that are present compared to prior years. When numbers of greenies increase for a year I would add more HSB or other bass species. Plan on each bass to eat 260-340 small fish each year if bass are not eating lots of pellets daily.

Gpugh pond stock history "new pond last nov. it's one and one fourth acre, 22 ft deep with a 10 ft wide, 5 ft deep channel down the middle that makes it 27 ft deep in the channel. I filled the pond from a creek on the back side of my property, filled with a 2 inch trash pump. I stocked the pond with 11 pounds of fathead minnows last dec then added 20 more pounds in February. In April I stocked 10 lbs of golden shiners, 215 yellow perch, and 100 red ear sunfish. I also added 5 dozen creek chubs, 6 dozen craw dads, from the creek below the pond, same one I filled the pond with. A friend has been catching shiners and minnows ( he calls them blood shiners and ozark minnows) from the Nianga river in southern mo. About 10 dozen of these."
"I now have thousands of minnows in the pond. I have been feeding them Optimal Jr and a special lab mix that Dustin from Optimal said would really turbo charge these fish (90 dollars a bag) and man it really turbo charged em ! The perch were 2-3 inches when stocked, now they are 8-9 inches. Shiners were 2 inches and are now 4-5 inches and about 2 inches from back to belly. Don't know how big the red ears are because I haven't seen or caught any."

At Oct 30 = 32HSB/ac. Remember as the fish grow this increases the fish poundage of resident fishes. Larger predators will then be eating more and larger forage fish. If you want growth to continue harvest is needed to keep carrying capacity at a reasonable amount and not put excessive predation on the small fish. Generally the fewer the predators the more they will have capacity / ability to grow.

The angler catch data will over the years allow you to see if numbers of small fishes are staying constant, decreasing or increasing. Numbers and sizes of your forage community are a very important component for a quality fishery. Most high quality sport fish ponds for the long term fail due to a poor or failing forage fish community.

I suspect with 40 HSB per ac the numbers of small fishes caught per hour will gradually decrease as HSB grow beyond 1 lb. Hopefully the decrease of forage is not rapid for your situation. Feeding the HSB has pros and cons for your stated goals. Decreased catch rate of small fishes indicates one or a combination of several things: too many predators, inadequate forage spawning, poor survival of hatchlings, need for more and larger refuge areas, or there is a need to stock more forage fish. If you put more harvest pressure on the larger HSB and restock with fewer smaller HSB this could(?) help forage fish numbers rebound? As the HSB growth per year "hits the wall" and relative weight of HSB drops below 85%-80%, this indicates they are becoming food limited. Food limited HSB could be a positive condition for your 'favorite angler' goals. HSB biomass is reduced, pond water quality is not degrading rapidly, plant growth is less and more controllable, nutrient accumulation rate is lower, catchability is still relatively high and angler is happy. As I noted earlier managing a pond for a quality fishery is a "numbers game".

These are comments to Gpugh's questions that I have not worked on as answers. Readers pay attention the the " " marks that indicate Gpugh's posts information.

Gpugh says “I stocked the pond with 11 pounds of fathead minnows last Dec 2020 and 10 lb of FHM that lasted about a week in spring 2021. Then added 20 more pounds FHM in February 2022. “In April 2022 I stocked 10 lbs of golden shiners, 215 yellow perch, and 100 red ear sunfish into 1.2ac. I also added 5 dozen creek chubs, 6 dozen craw dads, from the creek below the pond, same one I filled the pond with. A friend has been catching shiners and minnows ( he calls them blood shiners and ozark minnows) from the Nianga river in southern mo. About 10 dozen of these."

"I now have thousands of minnows in the pond. I have been feeding them Optimal Jr and a special lab mix that Dustin from Optimal said would really turbo charge these fish (90 dollars a bag) and man it really turbo charged em ! The perch were 2-3 inches when stocked Apr 22, now (fall 2022) they are 8-9 inches. Shiners were 2 inches stocked size and are now 4-5 inches and about 2 inches from back to belly. Don't know how big the red ears are because I haven't seen or caught any."

Redears - RES are hard to catch compared to BG or HBG. IMO do not expect to catch very many redears(RES), assuming you actually stocked RES instead of green sunfish(GSF) , unless you use special angling methods to dependably catch RES or fish for RES during their beach spawn activities. I suspect all the GSF came from unfiltered creek-water that you used to fill the pond. This is an excellent way to get GSF into a pond by filling it with unfiltered creek or ditch water. GSF fry can often be 3/8" long and very common in all drainage ditches and streams. It only takes two.

Your blood shiners are very likely more correctly called bleeding shiners. They primarily spawn in riffles of streams over and in the gravel nests and pits made by other fish usually hornyhead chubs and stonerollers. Ozark minnows mature in 2nd year and lay their eggs in nests of horny-head chubs and often hybridize with other shiners that lay eggs in steam fish nests. Creek chubs will in my experience will not pond spawn and also are primarily or exclusively stream spawners where they build nests in gravel that typically has a current flowing through the gravel. The chubs sense this stream gravel unique current as places to build nests. The current in the gravel nest keeps the eggs well oxygenated.

From what we read above about blood shiners, Ozark minnows, and chubs, they are not pond spawning species, so most likely practically all of the 1000’s of minnows now present from what you see, we assume to be golden shiners (GSH) and hopefully some fatheads(FHM) as survivors. Both can be very prolific in pond habitats. Small 1"-1.5" fish can also be small GSF, although GSF will swim and behave a lot different compared to shiners and FHM.

YP – “”The last perch I caught was around 10 inches, haven’t seen or caught one YP since then.”
I think the easiest and best time to catch the most YP is soon after spawning when they feed heavily to regain body fat from winter and spring spawning. If YP are being fed pellets, the fall is also a good time to catch YP.

Walleye – Your fall 2022 walleye total is now 40 stocked in two sessions. 25 in Oct 2021 and 15 in Oct 30 2022. “I stocked them(WE) last fall, they were around 6-8 inches when I stocked them, “” I just don’t know if the WE are big enough yet to be feeding on my perch. IMO walleye @ 6"-8" stocked in Oct 2021 and in fall 2022 will be around 10” to maybe 13” after one year in the pond. Walleye in a pond are DEFINITELY not as easy to catch as HSB.
“”Just sent Bill some pics of a HSB …….. to see what it has been eating. I sent the pics of the fish and it’s stomach contents and he said they were GSF,. Now the GSF are really getting hammered, I see about a third of what I used to see from the dock and shoreline.””

The fewer GSF are most likely due to predation from the 40 HSB rather than from 40 walleye(WE). I think this because WE do not grow very fast and large in pond environments compared to HSB. Not growing fast indicates these individuals (WE) are not eating as much food as faster growing fish (HSB). Food creates growth.

The other factor for HSB eating more GSF than WE is because the GSF seek refuge in shallow shoreline areas. HSB in small ponds will always frequent shoreline areas more often where GSF are hiding compared to WE. Interaction leads to predation.