Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose New 1A Pond Bass vs Hybred bluegill?

I just put in a new 1 A Pond . Have heard not to put in Hybred bluegill if you want good largemouth. Am new and would like hearing comments. What combinations work well in Indiana?

someone please correct me if i am wrong. i thnk hybrid bluegills are hybrids of coppernose bluegill and green sunfish. all the ads i have seen for them reccomend removal and restocking of the fish every so often. this leads me to believe that the F4 and F5 and so on hybrids begin to revert back to their green sunfish genetics. green sunfish are very competitive with bass for food. therefore classifying them as undesireable species for people looking to have bass in a small pond. i hope this is not to far off the mark

Bob - In addition to what Fletch said, there is another reason for not using hybrid sunfish (most often bluegill X green sunfish) if you want food for your bass. Part of the reason for doing this cross is to get offspring that are primarily male. If you cross a pure male bluegill with a pure green sunfish female, almost all of the offspring will be male. Then, supposedly, you don't get reproduction and the sunfish don't overpopulate your pond.

So, if you are managing for largemouth bass, you want a sunfish such as the bluegill to reproduce, because they are providing food for your bass.

The hybrids often don't reproduce very much, and then when they do, you get these mixed genetics of future generations that Fletch mentioned. Often, they don't grow as well, and seem also not to reproduce as much.

I think a lot of the pondowners who favor the hybrid sunfish like to feed them pelleted food, and get some dandy-size panfish that way. Most of them probably have to re-stock new F1 hybrids (first generation) every couple of years. I was not aware that some people try to remove the "hybrid swarm" after a while, but that makes a lot of sense to me.

Dave

Bob,

I'm also from Indiana (see profile). You couldn't pay me to stock hybrid bluegills. They really don't get that much bigger than regular bluegills, and I personally do not find them very attractive. As stated earlier they will not provide enough forage for your bass.

Stick to regular gills and keep your predator population (largemouths) high enough to keep their numbers in check. Also don't over harvest your largest males.

The only way I would have hybrids is a seperate pond just for hybrids with some bass to keep them completely in check. But this would be a pond where the hybrids are fed pellets and the pond would be strictly for growing the hybrids and drainable every two to three years before replanting. The bass in a pond like this would probably be stunted.

Are you guys trying to put KEN out of business??? I could not agree with you more. However, I recommend them in one scenario. If someone wants only a bream species (no bass)and wants to drain the pond after 2 years. The hybids are more agressive probably due to the green sunfish influence. Somebody slap me did I just defend hybrid bream stocking

Are you guys trying to put KEN out of business??? I could not agree with you more. However, I recommend them in one scenario. If someone wants only a bream species (no bass)and wants to drain the pond after 2 years. The hybids are more agressive probably due to the green sunfish influence. Somebody slap me did I just defend hybrid bream stocking

Greg,

I concur there is a place for them, but only when one wants bluegills and the bass don't matter.
I had a state biologist tell me he wouldn't have them in a pond either so someone agrees with us.

Someone has to defind poor ole Ken Holyoak. He says Georgia Giants are not the standard cross(I believe him) and will not convert to green sunfish. He does recommend draining your pond every five years and restocking. Want to raise 10 pound largemouths, Georgia Giants and Ken is not what you need. Ken sells F-1 largemouths but recommends Hybrid Stripers instead.

I stocked Georgia Giants 18 months ago. Have not weighed them but they are already larger than my hand and fat. Friend of mine has a pond South of my pond and stocked Georgia Giants five years ago and is catching 2 to 3 pound Bream now. I have seen the pictures and they are monsters. So I strongly disagree there is a one pound max on Georgia Giants. He also says the offsprings are still superior to regular bream and has no intent on draining his pond in the foreseeable future.

Cecil at one time did you not think there was some redear in the Georgia Giant cross?

If Ken is selling a fish that will ruin your pond he has done a good job of keeping that a secret for 30 years.

www.kens-fishfarm.com

I know Bob, Cecil, Greg and others disagree with me on this and I have a great amount of respect with each of your opinion.

Hey if we all agreed on every thing this would not be any fun!

This not an attack but statements of just things I've observed so far.

If, repeat IF, K.Holyoak is correct; Georgia Giants do not revert back to g.sunfish then it stands to reason that the cross uses a sunfish other than green sunfish; most likely redears as Cecil suggests. Since other sunfishes have smaller adult size, they are not likely candidates to produce a hybrid that will grow quickly to a large size.

However, Ken's pictures of G.Giants sure look like they have green 'genes' in them. Giants pictured have remanents of wavy, radiating emerald lines on the opercular flap and the anal, soft dorsal, and tail fins are edged with creamish-yellow both features of green sunfish and not features present w/ bgill or redears.

The mouth of Ken's Giants is also larger than that of a similar sized bgill or redear. Where does the larger mouth, color edged fins, and wavy, radiating emerald gill cover lines come from if not from green sunfish??. This is why I emphasized "if" at the beginning.

Mixed genetics is probably why Ken also recommends pond clean out every several years.
Regardless of the hybrid sunfishes parentage, they do have a place in 'special' fish ponds. ONE JUST HAS TO REALIZE THEIR PROS AND CONS before stocking them into a pond where the owner expects to raise larger bass or predator fish. Too bad the seller does not properly advise the pond owner about hybrid bgill facts before making the sale.

Ok enough about theory. I have witnessed not one or two but 6 ponds that were stocked with GA Gaints from Ken that now have green sunfish that only grow about 6 inches max. Bill, I agree he is a wealthy man wih 30 years exp., but I could not sleep at night after seeing some of his stocking rates 30,000 in a one acre pond. Of the folks mentioned all received different stocking rates. I feel he sells as many as he can and tells folks the more the merrier. He is a awesome salesman. I have management clients that still stock them in low numbers and I don't recommend it. However, so far I have not seen a pure green maybe the coppernose population is also high. I do thank Ken for opening the eyes of some folks (DNR) that do not sway from the norm.

Also the striper hybrids do not I repeat do not control bluegill as well as largemouth bass. They are more agressive but are pelagic species and can not fed very well on fish like bluegill that hang around cover. Having said that if you have a supplemental feeding program a few hybrid striped bass grow quick and add some fun to a pond.

Two futher comments:

Greg, will agree Ken will load a pond with fish. Suggested I put 7000 in my pond. I put 2500. As I understand Ken's idea on hybrid stripers, Georgia Giants have lower reproduction than bluegills so stripers can control the population. Also Ken's catalog clearly states a maximum stocking rate of 2500 Georgia Giants per acre.

Bill, In my view Ken does a good job of giving the negatives of his hybrid bream. The web site states the fish loses hybrid vigor with each generation and ponds will have to be drained and restocked periodically.

Whats a pelagic species?

I have it from a reliable source that Ken buys the run of the mill green sunfish X bluegill hybrids from other growers when he runs out, and markets them as his "Georgia Giants." Go figure.

To answer your question Bill, pelagic means open water. These fish associate with forage, temp, and oxygen instead of cover. They are usually designed a little different for chasing food, and often school.

Cecil, that was a "shot across the bow" based on heresay! I did not stock Georgia Giants the spring my pond was finished because Ken had run out!

Go figure.

pelagic species refers to those species (birds, fish, mammals, organisms) that live in the open oceans, not sure if our hybrid stripers count since they never get the chance to head out to sea? But if they could they would so maybe they do?

Bill(or others), why does a standard hybrid cross, bluegill x green sunfish, revert to a green sunfish as it reproduces and not to a bluegill?

We raise Hybrid Bluegill (male Bluegill x female Green Sunfish) and have not observed them reverting to Green Sunfish. If the broodstock is not pure, it is certainly possible that it could happen. We commonly see F1 Hybrid Bluegill producing stunted offspring that usually become bass food. The problem is that if you cross a F1 generation with a F2 generation, who knows what you're going to get. Therefore, we only recommend stocking them in a situation where bass keep them in check. This works well in small ponds that are managed properly for catch and release fishing. They also work well along with bass at controlling nuisance populations, like goldfish, carp, bullheads, et cetera because they really go after fish fry.

Hybrid Bluegill are definitely not right for every situation. We always go over the pros & cons with the customer before they purchase the fish (details are listed in the fish stocking section of our web site & catalog). We probably have a 50/50 ratio of Bluegill to Hybrid Bluegill production/sales. Did I read right that 30,000 per acre were recommended?? We normally go with 500 per acre in the correct situation.

Mike Robinson
Keystone Hatcheries

I have worked on ponds (7 or 8) stocked by the before mentioned fish grower. I have seen no consistancy with stocking rate recommendations. The fish populations were extremely crowded as a result of the stocking. Green sunfish were present in all the ponds. No 2-3 pound hybrids were observed.

one client told me he was advised to stock 1000 bass per acre. His bass (as well as all other fish in the pond) looked bad.

sorry about the negative post, just calling it like I see it

Shan O'Gorman
Pro Ponds

pelagic species - pelagic is from the term pelagial and derived from oceanogreaphy (marine/oceans/saltwater). It is often used as an adjective for a variety of freshwater and marine organisms to indicate they occur primarily in open water and do not orient to or favor structure in shallow water or the bottom.

Another reason hybrid stripers are not the best predators for bgill/sunfish is their mouth is small compared to their size. Bgill quickly grow to a size too large for them to eat.

I am not a fish geneticist and I do not teach that hybrid bgill after several generations revert to green sunfish. But I have heard this from numerous reliable sources and I believe it can occur after lots of inbreeding and back crossing by the offspring of the hybrids. If this is true, I think it is due to a combination of at least two main reasons. 1. More of the green sunfish genes are dominant compared to those of bgill. Successive generations and intensive inbreeding (F3,F4,F5,F6,&F7 all crossing)gradually minimize the bgill gene pool. 2. Green sunfish are more aggressive in behavior than bgill. (Did a senior project on this as an undergraduate). Those offspring with more traits of green sunfish are better at surviving and competing than the bgill. Natural Selection. Thus after time the 'bgill types' get "crowded out" and eliminated and/or are reproductively suppressed.

Bill, you are correct
The G. sunfish has the dominant gene

Bill Duggan,

When I posted I had heard that Ken sells hybrids from other suppliers when he runs out, I was told this by a biologist that works for a very very large fish supplier in the south. I wouldn rather not say who it is for obvious reason.

He said he knew other suppliers that were approached when Ken ran out. However I cannot verify it, so I should not have posted it.

Let's agree to disagree on the subject of Ken.

Mike, do you ever stock Hybrid bream and bluegills in the same pond? What are the pros and cons of this? I am asking because I stocked 2500 Georgia Giants along with 200 coppernoses and 100 redears. With largemouths and hybrid stripers I felt the coppernoses would help with forage.

The only time we stock both is when it is requested by the customer. Some customers want a Bluegill forage base with an occasional large Hybrid to be had. Our Hybrids don't get as big as Georgia Giants, but I feel they are better suited to the northern climate. Some pond stocking companies recommend a combination of Bluegill & Hybrids, but it doesn't make sense to me, because the Bluegills will cross-bread with the Hybrids, and then who knows what you have. I feel that you loose management control when you stock both, so I don't recommend it.

Redears do not survive the winter here, and we don't have Coppernose, so I really can't comment on your combination.

pleagic means openwater not just oceanwater. Very common term in the "university arena" it is used for openwater freshwater fish as well such as striped bass. Bill, I think you can defend Ken at this point b/c you spoke up (only stocked 2500)and did something a little more sound than most. I will not make anymore negative comments after this, but why would he sell more fish if he could? Money, yes. Biology, no. I sell fish to folks sometimes that I recommended to not stock. Why b/c I finally realized they will just go elswhere and buy them anyway. However I do not recommend more fish to folks when I think they are willing to buy more. I can tell from talking to someoene they would buy 2,000 bluegill per acre. However, I do what is biologically correct and tell them they only need 500-1000. Just some food for thought.
BTW I'll be in you area tom. if you want some fertilizer.
Greg