Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations How fast do fish get "wise"????

I have pond of about � acre in size & about 7' at the deepest. The pond is 12 years old.

I stocked Bass, bluegills, hybrid bluegills, shell crackers and channel catfish.

I started feeding the fish. The cats grew at an amazing rate. The fish got so use to being fed that when I came out the door of the house I could see wakes coming to the bridge that I fed them from.

After about 5 years I decided to have a fish fry and have some friends over. I put out a trot line. Surprisingly I had 6 on it before I got it all baited. I took those fish off and re baited the hooks. The next morning there were 7-8 fish on the trot line.

After cleaning those fish I got a bucket of feed and threw some out on the water. There was not ONE fish that came up to the fish food. It was nearly 2 weeks before they were back to normal in eating the feed.

I really didn't believe what I had seen. We had been catching cat with night crawlers. All of a sudden you couldn't buy a bite on a night crawler.

One day I was looking through the refrigerator and found some hot dogs that needed to be thrown away. I grabbed a rod and went down to the pond and baited up with a hot dog.

The hot dog & bobber hit the water and there were wakes headed to the bobber and then it went under. For about 2 weeks you could catch them as fast as you could bait the hook. Then all of a sudden they quit hitting the hot dogs. To this day I can't get a bite on a hot dog. Again after catching several of them they would quit coming to the feed.

Has anyone else noticed this kind of behavior in their fish?

Sort of. My fish (CC especially) wise up faster, but dumb down again sooner.

Jack_Flash1949,

Absolutely, positively yes!

Because of what you observed and what I've also observed many times in fish behavior, I never use pellets as bait. I also prohibit fishing at the feeders(grandchildren are the only exception) simply because of the reverse conditioning it causes. If you feed fish for growth, conditioning them to avoid pellets(by using pellets as bait) just does not make a lot of sense to me.

Fish, at least all pond fish that I have observed over the years in my ponds, are subject to conditioning....some more than others. In my experience, in small ponds, the HBG is the least likely fish to get conditioned. At the other end of the spectrum, the HSB and the LMB are very easily conditioned to artificial lures/flys. LMB are, however, very vulnerable, very catchable with live bait(especially live small BG), even on repeated uses.

It doesn't win many friends by telling them that their expectations for being able to have great fishing action with frequent fishing times in small ponds are simply going to fail...but it's generally true. However, if you have infrequent fishing trips and the time spent fishing each trip is limited and in low light conditions, if you are very careful about your choice of baits, if you select fish for stocking that are less prone to conditioning, then small ponds can be as good or better than fishing anywhere, in my experience.

I realize that we have respectfully different experiences and that's one of the things that makes this forum great, but I was discussing this situation with a PHD who's a patient of mine.

I've never noticed that when I use pellet flies, that the fish ever go off of the pellets.

The PHD explained classical condition in the following manner.

Classical conditioning is a form of "Associative Learning" whereby creatures continue or discontinue a particular behvior based on positive or negative feedback. He said that a fish like a largemouth bass may learn to avoid a rooster tail spinner because the one time he struck at it, he was delivered a sharp jab and landing experience. He said however, that it makes no sense that a fish would stop eating pellets, because the fish has experienced hundreds, if not thousands of positive experiences in all previous attempts to eat a pellet. He said that typically one negative experience (being caught) won't override 500 positive experiences (satiation).

This matches my experience anecdotally, as all fish sampled at the end of fall seining show fabulous body condition, even though quite a few of them have been caught periodically on pellet imitation.

I guess it's still one person's opinion, but I don't believe that a pellet imitation is going to override hundreds of positive experiences with a particular fish.

Interesting posts, guys. This is good stuff.

Bruce, my experience has been consistant with yours, that my feeder fish never go off pellets when have been repeatedly "sampled", while fishing fishing the feeders.

I like to use the word "sampled", because it takes only a few minutes to determine the condition of our CNBG and HSB.

This is the reason the pellet fly is such a productive way to achieve this result.

My experience pretty well coincides with ML. I live 70 miles away, don't get there as often as I would like, don't use a feeder, and sometimes don't even get a chance to fish. Three ponds; 1.5 acre, 1 acre and 1/4 acre.

If I catch one catfish, the other ones quit coming to pellets for the day. It is fairly unusual, maybe even rare, to catch 2. If they see a red and white bobber, they will avoid it and usually quit feeding on pellets. Even live or cut bait and prepared dough baits like Catfish Charlie are avoided. Conditioned? Yep!

If I fish for BG, I can catch 7 or 8 before they get hook shy. However, they do keep coming to pellets.

At this time, I am bass heavy in the larger ponds due to drought. The BG were just too concentrated and were easy picking. The water was too turbid, due to exposed banks and the resulting suspended sand, to allow for a good BG spawn. I caught 7 bass yesterday, from one downed cedar tree, under 12 inches, and tossed them on the bank. I caught fve "tossers" from another pond. They were skinny. However, I got only one hit (I missed it) from a larger bass. Conditioned? Yep, I would say so. BTW, next weekend I will be trapping from a CNBG/Res heavy forage pond to somewhat replenish it.

Do pond fish become conditioned? In my experience, yes. They can quickly learn that there is a string attached to an easy meal.

My experience is similar to ML's as well. I fish about once a month, when fishing for pacu one is all I get, most of the time. They will not eat pellets that day or the next, day 3 is feeding as usual.
The tilapia are a little different, the first one will be the largest and the following will be much smaller, if I vary the bait during the session I can improve the odds some what.
I don't use a pellet fly, only because I can't cast one, but do use bread crust, the tilapia don't seem to be able to tell the difference.
The red and white bobber has been a anti fish lure every since I took out a dozen fish one afternoon about a year ago.
Early on when the fish were a pound or two I was feeding daily with pellets and always threw veggies, during that time I could always catch tilapia until I tired. They ate almost any fruit or vegetable I threw in.
Now the fruit and vegetables will sit for up to an hour before anyone samples them, but I seldom feed those items.

This observation is consistant with a classical conditioning model.

Look at slot machines for an example.

Mixed stimuli.

Multiple positive reinforcement (payback) vs. negative reinforcement (going home broke).

If one negative result resulted in extinguishing of the behavior (playing slots), then Las Vegas wouldn't exist.

All I'm trying to do is differentiate between the conditioning fish experience with being caught by a lure (negative reinforcement without positive reinforcement) and the conditioning fish experience when being caught with a pellet imitation (negative reinforcement being mixed with lots of positive reinforcement).

I believe that if fish readily discontinued use of pellets for long periods of time like they do when being negatively reinforced to lures, then when I seine my ponds at the end of the year that I'd find fish that were in less than optimal body condition because I caught some of pellet imitators.

Let me clarify my contention....

I believe (rightly or wrongly) that a fish being captured on a strange or foreign object like a Jitterbug or a Rooster Tail can be taught to never attack something that looks like that again.

But I also believe (from actual experience in my ponds), that fish will more readily return to a behavior that's associated with positive reinforcement like pellet eating.

That being said, I don't have any catfish. I have no doubt that they behave considerably different than my bluegill, yellow perch or hybrid striped bass.

This statement is also very consistent with the classical conditioning model.

Negative stimuli (catching fish on a hook) mixed with multiple positive stimuli (eating BG usually results in satiation for LMB).

You guys have to realize. I am not trying to start an argument. I'm simply trying to fit together some observations with how fish, and other animals, are conditioned.

Here's the real heart of the matter.

Different fish react to these sorts of condition, in different ways.

Different species react differently, and different individuals withing an existing population react differently.

Bruce; agreed on the differences!

Ewest once furnished some info regarding catchability of LMB. It involved a University study on catching LMB from a pond. Then, removing the most often caught fish and putting them in another pond. They left the uncaught bass where they were. In short, the progeny of the often caught bass were also easy to catch. The uncaught LMB progeny also seldom "bit".

Learned behavior or genetics?

OK, this fits the fact that CC are different, but do we really know that BG are getting "hook shy"? Or do they cease eating because of the odd or alarmed behavior being exhibiting by nearby fish, i.e. a fish zipping around near the surface for no good reason. I have a hard time accepting that a bluegill is observant enough that he sees another bluegill eat a pellet, then gets caught, and makes the association that the pellet must have caused being caught. If that bluegill is, himself, in the act of eating and getting a positive response that he can make that connection....

Hmmm, sounds like this needs a real scientific experiement.

I agree with Bruce. Have you noticed most here have said they catch one fish before the rest stop ? I have posted this before. It has been noted in many fish species ,that when one of its kind is subjected to a strong negative stimulus (hooked and dragged around) the hooked fish releases a chemical warning response into the water. The rest of the fish take notice and become wary .

Having said that some fish species are harder to get to bite . There are even differences between sub-species and individual (genetics) of the same type , and I am sure age and conditioning can be a factor.

One fish biting a hook and that act being a conditioning event on all the others there who have not bitten a hook and who have successfully filled their gut with pellets many times -- I don't know. More likely there is another warning method at work.

Bruce I left out one possibly germane CC observation. I am down to about 10 big CC. These guys have seen it all and have never been caught.

On the BG, I can't help but think of Cody's expression about getting jerked around by the jaw.

I've managed, or am in the process of managing over 100 ponds, and I'd say that the smaller the pond, the more generally true this statement is. Both of my recreational ponds have light to modest pressure and have become ponds with poor fishing action. But I've managed other ponds that get relatively heavy pressure and remain excellent fishing. The one common thread between all of these ponds is that the more food availability there is, the more obvious the negative conditioning from angling is. In other words when food is abundant fishing can quickly deteriorate from fishing pressure. However in the ponds that I manage where food is scarce the fishing remains fantastic in spite of very high pressure. Makes sense doesn't it? Even with that being said I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.

Bruce,
My fruit and vegetable conditioning were as you describe, as long as it went in the water daily I caught as many fish as I wanted. When I stopped that conditioning they stopped biting with wild abandon.
Regarding the reaction of the hooked fish spooking the others, again conditioning might play a role. The pacu have always been spooky, when it was just them and the tilapia during feeding time there would be a boil and pacu would fly in all directions, who knows what frightened them, themselves? In the beginning everyone would stop eating for several minutes, but after a while the tilapia would continue regardless of what happened around them. As I said before if a fish is caught the pacu get out of Dodge.
One other thing I have noticed, catch a fish and there are many that chase the caught fish and if you get a bait in the water many times you will get a strike. It is almost like a feeding frenzy. Think about a school of tuna. I have seen LMB act in a similar fashion.
Regarding the hungry fish biting better, works for me if I want to catch dinner I skip a feeding and am assured a catch.
Last of my windy post,it's been raining for a week so forgive me, when I was a kid we used to fish below a series of dams on the Colorado river and I was a BG guy cause they were fun and easy, same spot, same group of fish until my dad said we had enough. Not a hook shy one in the bunch. They scattered when I caught one, but were back and ready before I was.

That's fascinating, and very much in line with the "differences between species" theory.

From what I understand about evolution and animal behavior, it's not neccesarily a difference in intelligence between species. These differences in behavior and conditionabilty, if you will ( ), obviously benefit each specific species, or they wouldn't exist in their present form.

Bruce,

I think it would be great if you would invite the PHD that has studied this question directly to the Forum.

I'd love to ask some questions, principle of which would be the explaination for the extreme difference in fish behavior we both report. I'm referring to your past posts in which you mentioned that you fish at your feeders with pellets because that is one of the most challenging, difficult to catch fish places on your pond to fish....and I gather you fish the feeders quite often? My experience is completely opposite that and I never fish feeders except when grandchildren or other kids request it. My grandchildren catch fish on bare hooks at the feeders at certain times...of course these fish become conditioned also to bare hooks. Such radical differences in fish behavior must have a logical explaination.

Invite the PHD person on, and tell us how many ponds, what type of fish, how many feeders and what different kinds of fishing they have done over what periods of time to reach their behaviorial model. That would indeed be fascinating reading and I'm sure we could all learn a lot from a PHD that has studied this question in ponds.

I think you have significantly misunderstood my post.

My PHD friend is not a fisherman, nor does he deal with ponds. I can't even begin to imagine how you came to that conclusion. He was simply stating what every psychologist learns from day one of course study. It's really not that difficult to understand. Organisms behave in ways that benefit them. Positive reinforcement makes a behavior more likely. Negative reinforcement makes a behavior less likely. I guess as usual I've failed to make my point to all.

I'm unaware of anything either one of us has said that flies in the face of classical conditioning theory. I'm simply trying to make it all fit to the theory.

Most of us have turtles in our ponds, right?

Turtles love fish food, in my ponds. When they get too numerous and too bold at the fish feeders, one well placed explosion from a 12 guage shotgun and the turtles do not come back to the feeders for a long time.

Now these turtles that don't come back haven't actually been abused directly by the blast...but they have observed the result. Without doubt, the very next feeding following such an exercise in behavior modification is met with turtles that only observe the feeders from a distance but do not partake in the bounty thereof.....but maybe my turtles are different or follow a different behavior model than turtles elsewhere?

I might add, the turtles in question have far more than 500 positive reinforcements under their shell, but one well directed blast seems to undo that reinforcement instantly.

I found my exact quote...

"I wholeheartedly and emphatically disagree with the premise that all bluegill are easy to catch at a feeder. The bigger, smarter ones are significantly harder to catch in many circumstances. Not all circumstances, but enough to not make a blanket statement concerning how simple it is. There seems to be an underlying implication that a person who fishes around a feeder is dumb, or in some way cheating, which I think is unfair."

Here's ML's description of what I said...

"I'm referring to your past posts in which you mentioned that you fish at your feeders with pellets because that is one of the most challenging, difficult to catch fish places on your pond to fish...."

I think you're misquoting me.
:rolleyes:

Interesting posts. I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to go to all of the expense to create what one would hope to be a great fishing pond, stock it with a good mix of fish only to have a pond in which fish wouldn't bite.

Bruce (and any others that would like to respond) can you give me an idea of what size pond you find are most effected? Of course logic tells me that it would depend upon the amount of fishing pressure put on a given body of water that Theo could probably express in a algebraic equation of fishing hours to pond volume or something like that but I digress (go figure). What I am really trying to find out is does this seem to be more of a problem in ponds say less than an acre or less that 3 acres or less than 20 acres? Does any of this question make sense? What I am really looking for is reassurance, sort of like you would for an 8 year old child, that follows along the line of "JHAP, since your pond is 3 acres you will never have to worry about your fish getting too hook shy, they will remain stupid and easy to catch even given your amateurish fishing skills."


It does make sense yet it flies in the face of the old pond boss rule of thumb of stocking enough forage fish to allow a bass to go to sleep with it's mouth open and wake up with a full belly. So we stock just enough forage to make the fish as large as we want yet not so much forage that they aren't always hungry?

How in the heck is a novice pond meister ever suppose succeed?

NOTE TO THEO: Please do not calculate and post a formula for optimum fishing pressure per volume of water. If you do my bean counter/type A/alter ego personality (and I use that term loosely) will take over and I will be forced to create an excel spreadsheet whereby I attempt to determine the optimum remaining fishing hours per month while considering the average monthly water level and the cumulative fishing hours to date. This would probably involve a multi-layer, linked cell spread sheet that would produce a dynamic three dimensional graphic of remaining fishing hours. As I'm sure you've been able to determine, I'm dangerously close to the outer edge of sanity as it is. Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated.

Oh and by the way Jack_Flash1949 - great first post and welcome to Pond Boss!

JHAP, the best and most consistent fishing pond I've ever been associated with is 3.25 acres. The fish are always biting. This pond also recieves heavy pressure.

The least consistent fishing pond is my very own 1.25 acre pond. It has lighter pressure, but the fish are always completely full.

I think the key to maintaining your sanity is to start with having healthy fish, then keep logs of how successful you are, then tweak the fishery to meet your fishing expectations. I think they're all different for a multitude of reasons and variables that can't ever possibly dissected in a full lifetime.

In order.

1. Good water quality
2. Fish that enjoy your water parameters
3. Enough food to make the fish grow, be it natural or pellets.
4. Have at it with a rod and reel and see what happens. If they don't bite often enough you're either going to need more fish or less food.
5. Start making spreadsheets for therapy.