Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations relative catchability scale

My pond is new, and my experience is shallow, but based on my reading of this board i am going to attempt to rank the common southern fish by "catchability" a 1 being most easy to catch. A 10 being the hardest. I assume no extreme conditions, such as over-population.
1.HBG
2.BG
3.HSB
5.SMB
5.Northern LMB
7.f1 LMB
10. florida lmb
10. cc

Surely this can't be right

CC are that bad?

Originally posted by Theo Gallus:

Only Ictalurus punctalus nefariensus, a highly intelligent subspecies found primarily in West Virginia. Ictalurus punctalus oculosingularus, the Central Ohio subspecies, is said to be easier to catch.

With nearly 60 years of fishing experience, I have come to believe that all families of fish have serious weakness that just need to be exploited. But, the fish in every body of water have different weaknesses, and age brings lots of wisdom -- to fish and those who seek them.

Numbers of fish per acre-foot, which translates to fertility and diversity, also have a lot to do with catchability. In my pond, I believe the ratio of LMB to BG is very close in numbers and weight. With the right techniques, I can catch almost as many LMB in and hour as I can catch BG. The total weight will probably be similar also, as I allow lots of LMB below 10 inches to survive, and I encourage lots of large BG (female over 9.5 inches, male over 10.5 inches) to survive.

The catfish are a whole 'nother story. They are old. They are big and fat. They are very wise. I'm slowly outwitting them one at a time. When I get them sufficiently thinned, I'm going to replace them with far younger, far more gullible specimens.

Before my much beloved Shenandoah River,the Upper Potomac South Fork, and the Cacapon (which my pond empties into) began experiencing the horrible problems of recent years Shenandoah Fish Kills Potomac Fish Kills , it was as easy to boat as many quality SMB in an hour, than to boat any combination of "sunfish" (BG, RES, green, pumpkinseed, warmouth, redeye, etc.)

Good water, good food, good cover, and good techniques can be a real equalizer for all species. As fishermen, we just have to be smarter than the fish.

I think Catmandoo has a good handle on fish catchability. A lot of it has to do with conditioning. Rating catchability is risky business unless one does studies on ability of various fishes to learn.

I would guess the rate of conditioning would be the major factor in "catchability".Even the most sophisticated fishing techniques would soon quit working in a small pond with a limited number of predators, I would guess. So the question of catchability could be thought of in this sense. How often can i fish for this particular species before they become hook-shy? to quote Meodowlark
Thus, the cruel good news/bad news joke on the pond owner is that the good news is you have trophy fish, the bad news is that you can't catch them...except on live bait such as small BG. The only solution I have found to this problem is to either fish less or build more ponds...its that simple. As some say, it isn't rocket science.

The two key factors IMHO are conditioning and food supply. Even among my conditioned fish if I want to improve catchability I simply stop feeding them for a few days.

Cecil is also on the right track. In animal behavior studies, hunger can be a big motivator and can overpower conditioning and or "good judgement".

howard,
Maybe your question should be: Which species of fish is least or most likely to become hook shy? When discussing this, one also has to take into account the amount of variability of individuals in a population to have the ability to learn or become conditioned. Some learn faster then others, similar to humans; some learn with one negative experience, some learn by observation, some never learn and keep doing the same negative enforcement things over and over again. The quirky thing, in at least humans, is some people actually find the negative experience pleasurable! Maybe some fish may find getting jerked around by the jaw pleasurable. Or the touch of an angler's hands feels good. I wonder how PETA would respond to that?

I once caught the same bass within five minutes! I knew it was him due to a peculiar marking on his head.

With domestication (fish from fish farms) we are removing those fish that don't respond well to the stress of handling, crowded conditions etc by natural selection (those that can't handle it die). Is it possible that by doing this we are also removing fish that learn and remember a stressful situation particularly well? Just a thought.

Howard,

A most interesting, important, and thought provoking post. As you might expect, I have some opinions on the topic....a few of which I'll provide for your consideration.

One key factor in this somewhat complex topic is "are artificial feeders and fishing with pellet food part of the topic?" If it is, then without any hesitation, I would say that CNBG at a fish feeder just before it goes off using the pellets that the fish is accoustomed to eating, is by far the easiest way to catch any pond fish. It is automatic, can't miss fishing in my ponds. The next easiest in my experience would be HSB under the same conditions. I don't know, but suspect cats would exhibit the same behavior.

An interesting aspect of this complex topic is the behavior of LMB in the presence of artificial feeders as related to catchability and conditioning. In the presence of feeders, without any question, the pure strain Florida LMB is the most difficult of any pond fish to catch, again in my experience. They feed almost exclusively on live unsuspecting CNBG at the feeders and will ignore everything else. Thus, one can raise a trophy LMB and never know it...it will die of natural old age causes, be eaten by a turtle, and the pond owner will likely never even know it was there. I have anecdotal proof of this happening in my ponds.

In an artificial feeding free pond, the behavior of the fish is very different, very different indeed. LMB are far more aggressive, especially the F1 variety and northern variety without the presence of artificial feeding. HSB become just another easily conditioned difficult to catch fish. They become conditioed just like any other fish, maybe even more so. What about CNBG? Well, at large sizes, which are above 10 inches in my ponds, large CNBG not associated with feeders are difficult to catch and can be conditioned just like LMB and HSB.

A couple of words about HBG....I have GG's in one small pond. Without question, the GG's are easier to catch, more aggressive, less "conditionable" than any other pond fish I am familiar with. I have performed controlled catch rate studies comparing CNBG, GG's, and native BG in separate but closely located ponds over a 16 month period to back up my claim(data available on my web site). In my mind, there is no doubt as to the significantly higher catch rate for GG's vs other BG, absolutely no doubt.

I think it is important to have an understanding of fish behavior because it directly relates to meeting your pond objectives....if you want the easiest to catch fish, set up an artificial feeder, use pellets, and stock HSB along with your BG. Recognize, however, that by using pelllets for bait, you can also condition the fish to avoid or be cautious around feeders. If you are artificially feeding for fish growth, you might want to reconsider consistently using pellets at the fish feeder...conditioning happens.

I could ramble on for pages, but most wouldn't read it nor be interested in it...but the topic is important because it directly affects one's ability to meet their pond objectives.

If you've read this far, my thanks for your time and thanks to Howard for bringing up a topic worthy of serious discussion.

I have found going after CC at feeding time gets you a pretty good shot at catching ONE and ONLY ONE catfish. If I hook one and fight with him, land him or not, the CC are almost always through feeding on pellets for the day.

Thanks for the kind words Meadowlark. Alot of the stuff you post seems to ring true to me.
So, for my little 1/3 acre pond, I plan to feed pellets, but only about 5 days a week. Given that, perhaps the CNBG,tilapia,FH,HSB, and SMB combo might work pretty well for me. How often do you suppose i could fish for these predators without running the risk of making them hook-shy?

Meadowlark, I am interested in your opinion regarding pellet feeders and LMB. I have a new 2 year old pond with pellet feeders. The CNBG or doing great, the largest are about 8 inches long and the largest LMB is about 8 inches at this time. I stocked approx. 50% Natives and 50% Florida's. My objective is to grow large LMB. Do you think there is an advantage to not pellet feeding the CNBG at some point? I do plan to stock TS and or Talapia next year and thereafter if possible.

Howard,

That's really a tough question...and I'm just not familiar with SMB behavior in a pond...SMB great fish, absolutely great fish, but I haven't had any in a pond.

I can respond with my opinion on the HSB and CNBG....a lot depends on your stocking rate....higher stocking rate = easier to catch fish, all other things being equal. I had 20 HSB in a small(less than 1/4 acre) pond. They very quickly became hook shy...of anything I had. Now I want to remove them and I can't...at least with hook and line. They refuse everything. I fished that pond probably weekly or at least every two weeks initially and it took less than 6 months for the HSB to become hook shy and after a few more months, they became virtually uncatchable. I'm switching over to LMB in that pond primarily because they will be very catchable, relatively speaking. They will spawn, become more prolific, and every one of them that is caught will be removed except for the initial stockers which I have fin clipped...hence conditioning will be minimized. No catch and release on LMB in that pond.

Regarding the CNBG, you will have much less of a problem with conditioning...on the small and medium sized fish. The ones that get large, however, will respond negatively to frequent fishing pressure.

I really wish I could say it much more positively and say that predator fishing will be great in spite of fishing presssure, but my opinion is that the HSB will become quickly conditioned unless the fishing pressure is very infrequent. Only long absences without fishing will undo that conditioning...or removing EVERY HSB that is caught and replacing them with new fish...a put and take operation. Catch and release will soon mean no catch, I fear. The CNBG will provide great entertainment and withstand regular fishing pressure except for the larger fish.

I hope I'm wrong and that your situation will be different than what I have experienced in my ponds. Best of luck and I'd love to hear about how those SMB perform in your pond.

fishinglth,

Thanks for your interest in my opinion... but you know what they say free advice is worth

I don't remember your pond size...but, in the absence of that data, my opinion is that if LMB growth is your primary criteria, you should get Tilapia in there as soon as you can, immediately. If you have 8 inch LMB now, they will benefit greatly from Tilapia stocking this growing season.

I can't offer scientific proof and if I did you shouldn't believe it anyway...but it is my belief, demonstrated conclusively in two of my ponds, that Tilapia will give you much more bang for the buck(measured in LMB growth) than artificially feeding the BG. Artificially feeding will help you raise large BG and in turn help your LMB some, but nothing like the kick that Tilapia provide. As a bonus, the Tilapia will increase your BG numbers and size by taking predator pressure off them...at least that has happened in every pond that I have stocked Tilapia.

I'm going to assume that LMB growth isn't your only criteria, however, since you chose a mixture of native and Florida LMB. If you were only interested in growth, pure Florida would probably have been your choice. Hence, I'm going to guess that you are also interested in positive catch rates. All other things being equal(and they never are), it is my opinion that LMB are significantly more catchable, more aggressive, and a much better predator in a pond that has all natural forage as opposed to an artificially fed pond with forage that is available, concentrated, and very vulnerable at an artificial feeder. I have demonstrated that statement also, conclusively to myself.

I won't advise you to stop artificial feeding...but will beg you to consider adding Tilapia, if you really want superior LMB growth. Catching those plate sized CNBG on a 3 wt fly rod is really a joy, and artificial feeding definitely promotes faster BG growth. My solution/approach is to have multiple ponds and in most of those ponds, I do not/will not artificially feed....but I do love to catch those super sized CNBG.

Just to make this point again about Fla LMB. It is good to recall that half of the Fla LMB that you stock will be undersized. The male half is always small (smaller than Northern males) . They rarely get to 20in and are noticeably smaller than their northern male cousins.

Howard,

I made a mistake on the numbers of HSB in that small pond....the original stocking was 40 HSB not 20. Right now those HSB that are remaining in that pond(about 20) make a hook shy LMB look like Rambo the aggressor. Those HSB have taken hook shy to a new level....meanwhile, in the same pond, the GG's can be readily caught on just about anything.

In my small 3/4 acre pond, I stocked it last spring with fathead minnows, copper nose bluegill and channel catfish. We've been fishing in it about a dozen times this year and using cheese as bait, we can catch one to two pound catfish pretty easily. I know they are young fish, but they sure are allot of fun for the kids to catch.

We've only cought about 5 or 6 bluegill.

Eddie

Wow..I am really suprised that the HSB can become so hook-shy in a small pond. Sounds like they deserve a serious demotion on the catchability scale , and maybe i treated CC a bit too harshly Mine is really kind of a delicate situation. My wife doesn't like to eat fish, so i don't want to be constantly removing fish. So, i guess i will have to just live with a stable population of predators (maybe SMB only), that i fish for only very occassionly. Maybe every 6 weeks or so.Sounds like i need to get a fly rod.