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I am about to order some washed gravel to be added to the pond bottom to serve as spawning substrate. BG, SMB, YP and HSB. Does size matter?

The gravel pit has #8 (3/8" screen), #57 - looks like greater than 3/8 up to 3/4, and "oversize", that which is screened out to be bigger than #57.

I am inclined to go with "oversized" but thought I better ask first. I have heard that size does matter.


2/3 acre pond 12 miles from that big pond we call Lake Erie.
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Here are 2 links. I am looking for 1 in which Theo posted some pics of SMB nests but can't find it. If he sees this he can add the pics or link. If not I will post a pic tonight.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000124#000005

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000120#000000

pics






















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Thanks as always. I remember seeing a SMB pic on some larger gravel that Theo turned us on to. That "gravel" was larger rock - looked like 1-2" up to maybe 4".

I am wanting to help the SMB primarily. But I am curious about my BG situation. I put in about 50 from my other pond in very early June- most were over 4" - several 7-8". I have seen no evidence of spawning beds or BG fry. I thought I would see both.

I also added 50 2-4" BG in early June.

My pond bottom is hard shale but there is some mud/silt that washed in from the rains.

I am thinking of placing old tires and filling them with some gravel of some size, and dumping some in piles around in various places. I can't follow the advice of only placing the gravel over known BG beds as I don't seem to have any. I would like to place the gravel now as the pond has 2.5 feet more to fill so placement is easier now.

From the threads you directed me too I am concluding that the BG like the smaller - pea gravel. But if I remember the SMB pics, they like the bigger stuff. If that is the case I will go with the bigger stuff. I imagine I will get all the BG spawning I need regardless of gravel size.


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I would agree with that. BG do well on many hard surfaces including larger mixed rock up to golf ball size while SMB can use that size up to softball size or bigger mix.

You can make BG beds. Find a location where there will be 1-4 ft of water covering clay (no silt wash in). Take a shovel and place the back side of the blade on the ground and step on it so it makes a depression like those in the last pic. Put about 20 of those together like pic. Then put a small amount of gravel in the bottom of each depression.
















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What are the diameters of those BG beds in the last pic?

I think I will order a "mixed" load of gravel - some pea size with some "oversize" Try to get the pea gravel in the BG beds, and put the larger stuff in several spots with and without tires. Most of my clay is not covered with silt so I should do ok.

Eric you made me feel guilty asking for help without first doing a simple search. Thanks for your patience with so many of us newbies. I did a couple of searches for "gravel" and "substrate" and found those 2 you pointed out and some others.
I will try to be more concientous and search first before asking. Your constant help is much appreciated.


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An old post of mine:
ahvatsa
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Member Rated:
posted October 19, 2005 09:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for all the feedback.
_______________________________________________

________________________________________________
ML The backside of the large island will be 22' at full level. The bails are haygraizer, simular to barley straw, I feel should hold together a few years??? They are mostly in 6-10'. I was trying to break up Lusk's "Sahara desert" on that side of the pond. I will watch for cat-tails. I've done a few other ponds and learned from my mistakes! Frankly, I have spent many hours on this sight, if Lusk, McDonald, Matson, McComas, Otto, or Scott have written or recorded it, I've probably seen it! Many great contributions here and too numerous to thank all! I have learned that 'shoreline'is very important in a bass pond, hence the islands and peninsulas. Several friends have sunk auto bodies and use a pear burner to clean paint plastics etc... before submerging. Be sure to drain all fluids first. Jon Herrmann has stocked a couple other ponds. He works well with me.

Matt and Theo, need a 5-6" hard rain and yes, this is my "Bass" pond. Crappie are on my mind.

Rmedgar, lol

ceadmir, It took me several trys to get to here.

ewest, Received 40 tons of 3/4-inch -1.5 gravel and made 3 beds 2.5-8'. Have a pier, bridge and boathouse in the works. 6 pictures from the end, looking through the trees, the cove to left will be for grandkids. Sand ordered and a soft slope to 4'. Additional 40 tons 3-5" rock to line spillway and a couple erosion prone spots. Note: we loaded trucks with 1.5" on sides and 3/4 gravel in middle. When we dumped it lined the larger on outside and the gravel in the middle. Should hold together well.

Thanks
al

ps Question... Anyone have thoughts on stocking bgs fatheads bass from DIFFERENT hatcheries? Wonder if mixing is better? Works well with my deer.

[ October 19, 2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: ahvatsa ]
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Posts: 89 | From: Poth/McCoy, Texas | Registered: Oct 2004 | IP: Logged |

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edit
The larger rock, mostly 5", is full of fry. As I walked the edges today I was thinking of adding more in a few areas. This 'POND-THING' has been and is a wonderful experence!

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If larger gravel causes fewer successful BG spawns then that will be good if you have perch and SMB. One successful nest of BG each year will give you all the young BG (15K -30K) that you will need each year in a 0.66acre pond if you have SMB as primary predators.


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Please don't feel like you or anyone else needs to do a bunch of research prior to asking a question. If that were the case there would be few questions asked or answered.

Most BG nests are about 12 - 18 inches across at the top.

Here is another bit of info on SMB beds,

From a study in the Black Bass Symp. by AFS.

SMB nested in water .5 to 3 meters where the substrate contained nest material where at least 40% of the particles were 6.4 to 149 mm in dia. ( .25 to 5.9 inches in dia.).
















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Here are two posts I have saved in perpetuity on SMB in ponds (includes Bill Cody's words on SMB spawning beds):

SMB in Farm Ponds

Getting ready to dig my first pond

From what I remember off the top of my head, I'd go with the #57 (but read 'em for yourself, and save 'em).

I'd definitely concentrate on the SMB beds; the BG will take care of themselves.

I think the pics y'all are talking about were a link I posted to an underwater photography site - I will see if I can find it tomorrow, as I think I have the link saved at work (if that wasn't before my CPU there crashed and I lost everything \:\( ).


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Couldn't find any pics of SMB nests (which I honestly don't remember ever posting), but I did find the underwater photo site (which CB1 turned us on to). It's neat enough to deserve another mention: Engbretson Underwater Photography


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Thanks Theo. I never did find the pics I thought you posted. I also looked for others who may have posted - no luck. So I found these. \:\)
























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Well the gravel truck has come and gone. Near disaster. Single axle loaded with 10 tons - part way around the pond sunk one rear dualie up to the axle. I thought it might tip over as it was on a slight slope.
While the driver fretted I had him open the gate to get some stone off. I ended up shoveling what seemed like 1/2 the load through the back gate to loser the center of gravity, then he was able to raise the bed and get 95% of it out, then was able to drive the truck out - carefully.
I now have 10 tons of "oversized" washed gravel no where near where I was going to put it - but now I know it will go "not too far" from where it is. The SMB will have to love it or not too bad.

I am worn out and it is only early. I'll take some pics of gravel and post when I return to work on Tuesday. Some of it is larger than I expected but that is great - I can build some structure with those.


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I hear you AATW . I had to move 20 tons of rock by wheel barrow , 5 gal bucket and box blade for a similar reason. Never again !! Get a front end loader to move it.
















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Ray Benson, oops I mean asleep at the wheel: your smallies will find the gravel. Build it and they will come. \:\)


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On a related SMB spawning question, is there a difference between how long LMB eggs and SMB eggs need to incubate before they hatch? A longer time frame might mean that eggs of one or the other species are more subject to predation by sunfish or other species.

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Shorty from first glance I would say there is little difference in survivability of LMB and SMB past the fry stage (on their on). I don't think it is just a question of incubation time as they are very vulnerable up until the male leaves which is a while after hatching. I will keep looking . Check your mail.

Smallmouth Bass from - Factors Affecting Fry Production of Smallmouth Bass

Bass nests were located mainly in areas
sheltered from direct wind and wave action
and partially protected from predators by submerged
rocks or logs. Nests were scooped out
in coarse gravel and fist-sized rubble, several
nests being used in successive years. Water
depths at 17 nests averaged 84 cm with a
mean nest diameter of 61 cm. The major
spawning period for both years occurred during
the last week in May (Fig. 1). A second
spawning occurred in mid-June 1972 after
a drop in water temperature. Eggs hatched
between 4 and 5 days in early June; hatching
during the second spawning period took 94
h at a mean temperature of 19 C. Sac-fry
continued development in the nest for an additional
6-7 days and began rising 11 days
after hatching.

Largemouth Bass from - http://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm?catid=6 SRAC 200 Largemouth Bass: Biology and Life History

Spawning with multiple females is common. Females normally release about one-half of their
eggs during the first spawn and half of the remaining during the second spawn. A third spawn up to 1 month later is common. Females average about 4,000 eggs per pound of body weight, but the number can be quite variable. Reports of up to 80,000 eggs from one female have been reported
but the average is much smaller. Larger fish tend to have larger eggs and therefore larger fry but fewer eggs per pound of body weight. Usually at spawning the weight of eggs in females will be 10 percent or more of her body
weight. During the spawning season the male does not eat and many males die each year due to
their poor body condition prior to the spawning period. Males attempt to guard the nest and fan the silt away from the eggs until they hatch. If he is successful, eggs hatch in 2 to 4 days in the southern U.S., depending on water temperature. The male will continue to guard the fry until they disperse, which may be a period of 2 weeks or more depending on temperatures. In
nature, most nests are lost to sunfish predation.
Nesting success is also reduced if the temperature drops below 60o F. This temperature usually causes the male to leave the nest. Without parental care the eggs will not hatch and predation will be increased. The fry feed on the yolk sac of the egg for the first few days. At 68o F they will develop mouthparts in about 190 hours. Fry swim up when they are about 8 days old and begin feeding on zooplankton (cladocerans, rotifers, copepods). They remain
in a school, guarded by the male, for 2 to 7 more days before dispersing. They continue to feed on zooplankton and add insect larvae and fish to their diet when about 2 inches long.
Normally fry feed about every three hours as this is the length of time necessary for food to pass through the gut. Adult bass are often observed to feed after about 14 to 24 hours depending on the size of prey devoured.

















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