Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Is it too late for Fatheads?

My lake has over 4 feet of water depth at the deep end. The shallow end is still exposes and slowly rising. There are plants growing in there that are slowly being covered and there's green alge floating on the top of the water.

Air temps are ranging from the low 80's to a few days that have had frost in the morning.

I'm in East Texas, just abot Tyler and I'm wondering if I can put some fatheads in now, or do I need to wait for spring? My plan is to put the fatheads in now, than in April put in coppernose blue gill and channel catfish. In June, I'll put in my bass.

When full, I'll have over 4 acres of surface water, but right now I'm just under three acres with allot of it only a few inches to a foot deep.

How many pounds would shoud I put in there?

Thank you,
Eddie

Here are a few pics from yesterday.

Eddie

Eddie where is the water coming out of the pipe coming from ? Do you have a separate source of water? How long has there been water in the pond ? Any chance of fish getting in via the pipe?

My approach is FH are cheep so not much to lose if you add about 10 lbs. They should do ok and get you off to a good start. If not you can add more this spring.

One thing to consider this spring wrt the CNBG is dividing your dollars between 2in and 4in CNBG. I have started doing that on all new ponds which will have LMB stocked that summer. I put in about 800 2in and 80 4in. rather than 1000 2in. per acre. My reason for doing this is so that by fall of the year I have 3 classes of BG rather than 1. Some will be 6-8in , most will be 4in and the larger ones will have spawned and as a result you should have some yoy-2in ones as well. I think this results in a larger more diverse bio-mass of BG at the time the LMB spawn the first time. Not sure I would recommend this for northern ponds. Any thoughts guys?

Actually ewest, I think that sort of plan would work for BG in northern ponds as well so long as the CNBG where left out of the plan and just std. BG were used. I think it's a great idea.

Eddie,

I'd talk to Bob Waldrop just down the road from you...my own approach would be to not only put in the FH's but also stock a portion of your eventual BG numbers now...say 50% now and the rest in the spring. I've learned that BG do indeed grow considerably through the fall and winter in our area and by stocking them now, they will be acclimated and ready to spawn at the first opportunity in spring. Its an exciting time watching your lake fill up for the first time...happens only once, enjoy it!

I disagree. I don't see anything for the fish to live on in that new muddy water. They might somewhat stay alive but certainly not thrive or even do marginally well.

However, given my lack of patience, I would probably do it. A water hole without fish is an abomination.

I would recommend five pounds of fathead minnows per acre, so stock 20 pounds. Wait to stock bluegill until you have more, and deeper, water. The objectives of fatheads are for them to grow and reproduce often. They can overcome heavy predation via exponential reproduction next spring. Bluegill, on the other hand, take longer to mature and reproduce. If predators (especially birds) find them this winter in water only a few inches to four feet deep, they can sure eat a bunch of them. Then, you go into the spring not knowing what you have. I would wait until you have at least 8 feet of water and 2/3 of the surface area covered, going into a rainy season. At that point, stock 1,000 bluegill per acre or 750 bluegill with 250 redear per surface acre. Plus, if you lose bluegill, that's a major investment in the backbone of the food chain. If you lose some fatheads, that's a snack.

DD,

Aahh, a chance for a good discussion and also a chance for me to learn something, I hope. Let's discuss it.

As I've mentioned before, I try to limit my posts to things with which I have real first hand experience on, not something I've read about or heard someone else say. I'd like to understand where my experience is off base on this one.

First, Eddie's place is in a region with very similar climatic and soil conditions as I have. I'd always heard the admoniton to not stock BG in fall because they wouldn't grow any during the winter. Last Dec. 3, I stocked 200 GG's into a muddy, shallow, recently renovated pond. The water in that pond had been there about as long(probably less actually)as Eddie's new pond water and it was generally 4 feet deep or less, mostly less. By the end of May, those 4 to 5 inch stocked GG's averaged 8 inches. Since many of the pros on here say GG's and HBG in general do not grow any faster than CNBG, I would assume if I had stocked CNBG on Dec. 3 into that muddy, shallow, renovated pond, they would also have shown substantial growth...if not and the growth I saw is only because of the GG's, then that would be an interesting find.

Hence the basis for my recommendation to Eddie to go ahead and stock some portion of his CNBG now. If his CNBG could almost double in size by next May, why isn't this good advice? Even if they only grow 50% as fast as the GG's, he would still have 6 to 7 inch fish next spring and they would be ready to spawn, fully acclimated to the environment. Isn't that a good thing vs waiting several months for the growth to start?

Thanks for what I hope will be a good discussion.

Thanks for the replies and advice.

I'm gonna give Bob a call at Tyler Fish Farm and talk to him to see what he has and advises. I don't see what harm it could cause to put the fatheads in now so that's for sure.

The idea of putting CNBG in now is one I hadn't considered, but it's an idea that I like. Especially the part of getting a head start on spawing in the spring.

Thanks,
Eddie

ML, My thoughts. I make no distinctions regarding species.

I see a mud hole without a phytoplankton base. Moreover, I see a lot of currently uncovered mud. I expect the surrounding drainage area and sides have been disturbed and will also contribute a lot of suspended soils in the runoff area.

I think he will have mud until he gets at least half full and can let some of the suspended soils settle.

Thus, I believe he will have limited sunlight penetration for quite some time. That's why I say fish might stay alive but not flourish.

Also, at this time, I doubt that his new water has had time to leach alkilinity from the soils. He is also in pine tree country and may need liming before stocking.

Put it all together and I see bad timing.

So, Dave, you would not recommend that Eddie even stock fatheads at this point?

In my experience mosquitos and other small insects whose names I do not know lay eggs and set up housekeeping in muddy water as well as clear water....the life cycle needs only standing water...I base this on observing thousands of larvae in any standing water shortly after a rainfall. Heck, if for no other reason, I'd stock some BG to help control the mosquitos

I don't understand, further, why some say it is ok to stock fatheads but not small BG. Are the dietary requirements that different or are BG any less hardy ? I've seen BG survive in mere inches of water...not saying I would expect growth in an inch of water, but question why it would be such a risk to stock a portion of his BG now in water that is four feet deep with the rainy season in progress.


If I had waited for clear water (or clearer) for the TGG pond, I'd still be waiting today instead of catching 9 to 10 inch fish.

Dave,

Thank you for your concern.

Let me give you a little more information and see what you think.

The pines grow in certain areas of my land in the red soil. The lake is at the edged of that area in one spot, and that isn't very much, nor did I take out any pines when I cleared for the lake site. The soil is brown, yellow and gray.

Agle has been growing on the surface of the water, but not very thick.

I'm pumping clear water in from a nearby creek 24/7. I bought a 3 inch trash pump off ebay and hooked it up to a 16 gallon auto gas tank. Every day the water level goes up a few inches.

Eddie

Eddie,

Chances are you already have some native BG and other species in the lake...depending on what fish that stream contains. Unfortunately, most small streams in my area contain fish which I wouldn't want in my ponds.....hopefully your stream isn't like those.

You need to listen to him, as he's been kind enough to tell you THE ANSWER, and ignore most everything else, except for it being good conversation.

Robinson; Yep, I don't ever, ever, argue with Lusk. However, I don't always do what he says. Gotta admit, when I don't, I generally lose. And, this promises to be excellent conversation.

Eddie, creek water opens up a whole new world. Every bit of it unknown. Or, at least unknown and misunderstood by me. However, you need to ask what part of the creek water is new rain and what is old creek water. New water that has just fallen from the sky does not have an alkilinity base. And like ML says, you have probably established some sort of forage base with the pump. BTW, good looking pump.

ML, we both know that fatheads could survive in a nuclear waste dump. Those suckers are tough. However, if they spawn, which I doubt this time of year, what will the tiny, wiggletail sized, hatchlings eat without a good base? That's why I don't like stocking until the water has settled out and there is a proper(what's that?) amount of fertility. OK, so you did stock HBG in muddy water. However, you were somewhat controlling or managing a pretty small pond with feed. You bring a bunch of intensity to this stuff. I've not heard that Eddies situation is the same. I also have no idea whether his expertise parallels yours.

My overall thoughts are that you can put in fatheads and stocker CNBG or BG in the Spring and not really miss a beat. Heck, you will probably have a better forage base. I expect that winter in a new pond has to take a toll even just North of Tyler.

OK, I'm a narrow minded traditionalist. But, I continue to believe in not pushing the envelope when it comes to sunlight penetration. Just remember, I admitted that I am weak willed, of low character, and go against my own beliefs. I would probably overcome the abomination of an unstocked water hole.

Now, as they used to say in the CB days "Kickerback".

eddieW If it were me, I would do two things. 1. make a filter sock out of fiberglass window screen, maybe a cylinder 10-12" dia and 4 to 6 ft long. Fold over the end and sew it shut. Clamp or tie the sock over the end of your discharge hose. This will filter out most YOY fish larger then 3/8" long. 2. place a tarp or plasic sheet under the flowing water or run water through a drain tile until it reaches the pond water level. If I run water through a drain tile then I clamp the sock on the end of the water delivery pipe. This will minimize erosion and help reduce muddy water in the pond.

I have not yet developed a sense of sympathy or empathy for Fathead Minnow. Therefore, I cannot concern myself with his plight of being in new muddy water, especially at his meager cost of $7-10/lb.

However, Fathead does have my best wishes in his quest for survival as I dump him into the pond. May he be strong and not waiver in his task.

For me, Blue Gill can come or go. He too has my best wishes for survival if indeed he enters the picture.

Now Bullhead, on the other hand, rates negative on my overall compassion scale. Therefore, he is basically unwelcome. Somehow, he usually shows up though. ML's point about the creek water could have already done a trick. Hopefully Bill's filter suggestion can be implemented.

DD,

I grew up in my young adult environment being encouraged(actually very strongly encouraged) to challenge traditional thinking in order to achieve new, positive things....yes, I've been burned some, but have learned a few things in the process and maybe, hopefully, have aided a couple of people in also learning something along the way.

Thanks to Robinson for pointing out Bob's post again...I hadn't noticed the bird rationale before that. However, I would question (ok DD there I go again) that bird predation in muddy, 4 feet deep and increasing by inches daily water will suffer bird predation that would even come close to offsetting the benefits of having a good population of spawning ready BG in the spring. Water turkeys do not like muddy pond water...herons probably don't care much but they just aren't a big factor in my area. Eddie is a 24/7 owner and knows how to handle unwanted predators...I've seen his pictures.

I'm guessing that most of us would agree that Eddie needs to address the possibility of unwanted fish from the creek, if he hasn't already. That is potentially a far more significant item than the discussion about the relative merits of fall/winter stocking of BG as a forage fish.

Yep, that could get pretty significant. It has always amazed me how a fish could survive the impeller of a pump.

I wasn't raised with the idea of questioning. It took me awhile to realize that those little(and big) droppings were really manure.

Philosphically, I found that a little fertilizer is OK. Too much can burn you and stifle growth.

Yes, we know the type. You probably actually believe the world is round. :p


We all know it is flat.


All kidding aside the pond needs the following. Fathead minnows, Bluegill, Red Ear sunfish, northern strain largemouth bass, and maybe a few channel cat, at the owner's discretion. Anything else, including pumping in creek water which could contain carp, buffalo, suckers, mudcat and grinnels and various shads and green sunfish to boot, is a recipe for disaster, well rhotenone anyway.

I spoke with Bob over at Tyler Fish farms this morning and he told me it was too late to stock minnows. He'd sell them to me if I wanted, but the water temps are too cold for them to spawn and there was no advantage or reason to put them in at this time of the year.

He said to wait until after Feb 15th and a few warm days, then put fatheads and bluegill in at the same time. I didn't ask about catfish, but will when I see him in the spring.

Thank you everyone for your help and advice,
Eddie

...we're sittin' in the same pew, Eddie.

Brettski your pew is a few hundred miles north of Eddie's and a lot colder.

Eddie how much did you tell him about your pond?

I agree with part of what he told you but not all. I agree that it is to cold for them to spawn but I disagree that there is no advantage to stocking them well before the BG.

One if there is food available they will grow a little and get acclimated to your pond. Two you will know that you have pre-spawn FH in the pond who will spawn ASAP when the conditions are ready at 64 degrees. No guessing about timing , water temps, their availability or other conditions. Three if you stock FH and 2-3in BG at the same time the FH will soon spawn and the new BG will start eating the first FH offspring while they are in the larval/fry stage . If on the other hand you stock the FH now or in a few weeks and stock the 2-3in BG a few weeks after the FH spawn the predation on the first FH spawn will be reduced and they will grow and be available for the LMB when they are stocked. Its those first few FH spawn offspring that are important to getting your small LMB off to a good start. This would change somewhat if you are stocking feed trained LMB.

I would put in a few pounds ( 5 ) of FH now and the rest as Lusk described. My opinion for what its worth.