Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Help me build a sign

Since we are starting to back-up water in the new pondsite, I feel compelled to "send a message" and protect myself from liability. I want to create a sign with brief but poignant verbiage that I can locate at strategic areas of the pondsite.
We have about 6 neighbors that border our 44 ac parcel. Some of them have young'uns. We also know that our property (and surrounding) is popular for mushroom'ing. I suspect that I get many visitors when we are absent; popularity based on the time of the year.
I have no problem paying for a half dozen or so nice aluminum (or plastic) signs, custom made to meet the need. I want to address "no trespassing" and all the possible poacher uses of the water feature (ie; fishing, swimming, wading, ice skating, etc). I don't want a laundry list of "do not's" on the sign.
Here is where I am starting: PRIVATE PROPERTY, NO TRESPASSING. DANGEROUS WATER.
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C'mon, kick back some good "right to the point" stuff that will help to send the warning AND help to cover my butt legally.
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I found a gazillion custom sign makers on the www. Does anybody have any practical experience?

an age old problem brettski...IMHO, it aint gonna matter what you post, but you can feel good about saying what you feel the best way you know how.

this was discussed on an earlier thread (sorry i am not a thread master) involving wicked and some others....."half" jokingly, my favorite is "trespassers will be shot......survivors will be shot twice"

perhaps in addition to signage (which in CA you must have signs every 50 feet to hold up a liable court claim) you should have all your neighbors sign an indemnification clause (aka release of liability agreement).

our chosen signage states "private property, no trespassing, residents and invited guests only"

we also have a variety of smaller signs here and there stating no tresspassing, no hunting, no fishing, no poaching. people come down anyway, and i'm glad to be (mostly) working out of my house to keep an eye on things.

[Not exactly an answer, but something your post made me realize might be useful to you or other PMs.]

Brettski, while you aren't an agricultural operation, you might want to check out membership in the Illinois Farm Bureau (assuming such a critter exists - do they do any farming in Illinois? :rolleyes: ).

In Ohio this is about $50/year. In addition to some interesting signs basically telling people "This is a farm, manure smells, get used to it" their publications have much useful information on trespassing, liability, and fence/property line law (like how far apart "No Trespassing" signs should be).

You're out of luck on signs. People know when they are trespassing and signs don't deter them.

I would check with my insurance carrier for a good general liability policy. Mine is a rider on my homeowners policy.

"Gold and candy at the bottom of pond" is what I would put for a sign!

hahaa

kidding.

What about "Welcome to my ond. Notice there isnt any P in it. Please keep it that way" -A classic!

again, signs are just signs and are generally ignored, but theo made me think you could also post at a few prominent locations.... "nature preserve"......."pond under management....no fishing allowed"........"steep banks....drowning hazard" with one of those little pictures of a guy drowning

edited post..dave raises the same point my wife did when we fixed our pond (she works in commercial lines insurance) to get an umbrella policy.....would be the prudent thing to do.

Alright, some of the stuff I expected...I asked for it :rolleyes:
Yes, I realize that very few to nobody is gonna heed the warning. Yes, I am looking into the umbrella policy. Yes, my insurance carrier told me to "post" the property; no details available.
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I only wanted to ask if you guys can think of a set of english letters that make up english words that would cover "all the bases" in short form. It is nothing more than a legal formality that I want to address thoroughly.
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ps; a couple of legit, peripheral ideas eminated above...good stuff, thank you.

The most popular sign in Texas:
"This property guarded by Smith & Wesson"

or

"Guarded by Smith & Wesson three nights a week you guess which three"

"Absolutely No Trespassing; and YES, THIS MEANS YOU."

Not that it will stop anyone, but everyone's excuse is that they thought it didn't apply to them.

Agree with the Guvnor....get a million worth of insurance.

lest i forgot to whom i wuz speaking,....sorry brettski, should have realized you'd uv thunk out all the contingencies....

hmmmmm, english letters to make english words......i would go for statements such as

"steep banks, drowning hazards,
"shallow submerged hazards",
"soft bottom hazards",
"seasonal thin ice hazards"

the above would make more sense accompanied by the laundry list signs
"pond off limits"
"stay away from pond edge",
"no swimming",
"no wading",
"do not walk on ice"

however young children may still see this as the ancient arabic font and have no clue what any of that means. there could be value in posting those funny little pictures of people drowning, falling in, cutting there feet on sharp submerged objects, getting trapped under ice, etc.

for what its worth, good luck sir.

How about "warning man eating alligators in pond"

i am not so sure you need signs.

I dob't think signs keep anyone out, but then they don't hurt. I also live in Illinois and I obtained from the state fishing guys a supply of about 4 x 5 inch cards that you have tresspassers you do allow (friends, neighbors, your banker) sign that basically give them tresspass permission. When they sign it is a release of liability for everything but intentional harm. It is a perforated form that you keep part of.

My game warden adivsed I should put a purpose for the tresspass and an end date. As an example a high school buddy asked permission to mushroom hunt. I filled out the purpose to be "mushoom hunting in season" I dated it to end 12/31 of that year, I told him my insurance required an end date, then when he approached me for the next year I did it again.

I also "manage" some land held by my mother in trust. In that case I advise them to always carry it with them when they are on the land. That way, if someone challenges why they are on the land the card is their permission to be there.

Bing

the first million of insurance is the most expensive...additional layers over that are less so IMO the more the better. Signs, in and of themselves probably dont mean much, a sign cannot transfer liability...its all about liability and unfortunately or ironically if there was some sort of negligence then there is liability the insurance carrier becomes "you" and will settle anything involving an injury or worse.
that said yes a good no tresspassing sign is the right way to do it but probably additional wording wouldnt be required. Somehow it seems pointing out that there is a pond with a sign might be construed as negligence as a body of water is an attraction to youngsters. The less they know the better off you might be.
All just my opinion.
I know around here the insurance companies are nervous about ponds and swimming pools are required to be fenced in...maybe ponds are next.

Here in louisiana they put a law on the books that you dont need signs its suppose to be a given. People use to be able to use the good old saying"i am looking for my dog" and they would not be in trouble not anymore in louisiana.I had some signs made up by a company on the web but i can remember the name. They are aluminum and pretty thick i will have to see if i can find the site.here is a pic of my signs

Here is where i got them from they have templates you can start from or do a complete custom. You get to make the sign yourself and preview it before you buy it. www.buildasign.com The sign in the pic is a 18x24 just the right size.

Ok Ski here are a few tips. Get cheap bright neon plastic no trespassing signs. Expensive ones will be pulled up ,shot or destroyed.

Adults can read and are charged with knowing the law so special words are not needed. For them NO Trespassing or Keep out etc, signs are good enough. Post a few along obvious places up on trees 9-10 feet in the air but easily visible (hard to tear down) then a few lower so kids can see them.

Kids don't read and are not charged with knowing the law so words on signs don't matter but skull and cross bones signs ( with the words danger keep out ) like on hazardous chemicals are good. It is the attractive nuisance of a pond or water or equipment that gets you wrt kids. Barriers are what you need for kids. Any where you think they may come on the place post a sign and block the trail (not with a neck high wire that may get someone on a bike or 4-wheeler) but some thing substantial and visible. Remove , take down or make inoperable any thing a kid may play on (swings , bars , equipment , power, etc.). Put a gate on the pier so no one can walk out on it with out opening the gate (lock it). For the pond have a few signs that say no swimming , diving , fishing or boating. Put one on the locked gate facing shore. Put one near the beach. Others as needed. On a post out in the water is good if the ice won't cause a problem.

Tell your neighbors to stay out unless invited if that is what you want. If you tell one person it is ok to come on then everyone else will say when confronted " ole Bill who you let come on said it was ok if we did".

Rule 1 about trespassers , first take his picture from way off or have one from a hidden trail camera then call the law. Rule 1A if you are going to confront them (which I do not suggest) do it on your property and when you have them out gunned and have the drop on them. Better if you have back up help that is well armed and at a safe distance with a clear shot with you out of the way. Distance is the first line of protection don't get close and don't give them a chance to harm you. Having said this a word of wisdom is warranted. Think about this WRT your plans. The guy you throw off can easily come back and burn down the woods or house or poison the pond. You have a lot to lose and he may not.

How about Radon Gas Warning, Toxic waste dump or cancer causing agents in pond. Put some fake human and animal skeletons around in the pond and on land in plain sight. -----Just kidding Brettski. I don't think that would work at a nature preserve. But for some of you this might work!

Brettski, just out of curiosity, have you met any of the neighbors yet?

Yes. I went out of my way to introduce myself and let them know what was going on in the woods behind each of them. I did this right about this time last year as we entered hunting season. My main thrust was to share our posture on "no hunting", totally opposite of the previous owner that removed 14 deer stands the day before closing on the sale of the parcel. There is really only 1 or 2 guys that actually hunt their own (adjoining) property, and they were reasonable and cooperative. One did ask if he could track onto my property if he wounded a deer; I respectfully declined the option.
I was told by a couple of the "longer established" residents that the entire area is big on Morel mushrooms and that my parcel has always gotten the old "park the car on the road, tread thru the farmfield, and scour the woods". I have not witnessed it yet.
There are 2 younger families that I have the closest relationship with. They border each side of my long entrance lane. They come off as pretty good folk and have helped me a little along the way. One has asked me if I minded if he walks my property to find Morels and I told him that I don't mind. I have encouraged both, as friends, to take a look now and then at our progress. The Morel-guy has already told me that he caught the brother-in-law of the previous owner walking back thru my drive and into the main block of woods. He said that he got on his golf cart and shagged him off.
I am kinda thinkin' that I may have to develop some kinda "deal" with these guys, but I'm very hesitant. Whaddayathink?

I think your approach to the neighbors has been good. As always, time will tell as to who the truly good neighbors are as far as really caring about your land.

If there's a opening day to Morel season, I would be at your property early that morning and walk the property and politely "meet" each person you see. As ewest has said, it's always good to have friends with you (armed or not is your choice; I prefer armed). Again as ewest says, it would be a good idea to get a photo from a distance. Then I'd tell them that the property is off-limits now and kindly ask them to step off. I'd do the same thing for many random days throughout this 'shroom season.

Returning to the neighbor thing, if you end up finding one of your neighbors is not who you thought they were, you can change or eliminate any agreement you have with them. I believe that direct & clear communication is best for that; too often, I feel that neighbor problems are exacerbated because people don't actually make enough effort to talk things out.

As far as deer season, that's a really tough call whether you want to be out walking your property (as a newcomer) in-season until you know whats really been going on.

The best time to do so would probably be in the weeks leading up to deer season while hunters are scouting out locations and patterns.

Was there ever a time when a fence meant keep out? I find it so sad that I could loose a liable suit because my signs were 75 feet apart.
Just remember, "no harm no foul" ..."no body no crime" . just kidding....I'll go buy more signs in the morning.

you guys are way too paranoid. all the life comes to the water. relax. are you guys cooking moonshine or what?

In Missouri, if you use purple paint at every entrance and corner and every 100 yrds a paint mark down property line, it is the same as posting. Might check to see if your laws are the same.

Brettski, I use simple "No Trespassing" signs DIYd by spraypainting through a stencil onto aluminum and vinyl siding remnants. IMHO you want to keep the signs simple. Don't post "no" for activities which you do - this invalidates the notice, if not legally at least in people's minds. For example, don't post "No Fishing" at a pond you fish on. After this was pointed out to me, I removed my "No Trespassing - No Hunting" signs as I do the latter activity all the time.

I strongly suspect Illinois law states how close together No Trespassing sign have to be wrt liability.

Go ahead and get that PLUP (Personal Liability Umbrella Policy). Ours ($3M) is the cheapest insurance policy we have, and potentially the most valuable.

Ohio law is that children below a certain age (10 or 13, can't remember off the top of my head) are NOT responsible for their actions - if they get hurt on your property it's your problem. Yeah, I think that sucks.

If you are on your property during deer season and there is hunting around you, I strongly recommend you wear dayglow orange when in the woods. No, you shouldn't have to, but it's like seat belts - you don't plan on having an accident. Yeah, I think that sucks, too.