Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Newbie, Looking for help (alternate scud thread)

So Bill Cody....your observations on salinity and it's effect on scuds. Any idea on who we could contact who could tie species to water temp, and species to salinity, etc...

Also, if scuds were put in a small pond that already has a large invertebrate population, can you think of any possible downsides to stocking scuds? Would they outcompete any other important invertebrates? What do they eat...detritus, zooplankton??? A million questions. I'm seriously considering buying a gallon for stocking. What about time of year for best success? I'd love to do it right now.

Is there a chance that some fish parasites may make the trip to my pond from Minnesota within the scuds?

Also, here's a thread that discusses the possibility of the scud being an intermediary host to certain harmful parasites.

http://www.centralpets.com/animals/fish/freshwater_inverts/fwi5003.html

In the suppliers words:

Shrimp prefer a variety of water depths but they do need relatively clean water...they are very sensitive to chemicals, pesticides, sediments and salts from field run-off, ditches, tile or brackish water. They are gill breathers and are susceptible to turbid or dirty waters. They are also susceptible to a low pH (acid waters)...such as a pH below 5...as this could break down their shell bodies made of calcium.

If your water receives alot of run-off or other impacts which result in turbid waters or low pHs, then we would recommend that you hold off on shrimp for right now and contact one of our Private Lands Consultants for information on how you might be able to take steps to clean your waters.

IMPORTANT - shrimp have to be installed within 24 hours of receiving your package. There are literally 20 to 40 thousand shrimp per gallon and they need to get into water. These shrimp are mated pairs and will reproduce 2 or 3 times during the year producing 50 to 75 young per time. Very prolific and will come back year after year if your pond will support them.

INSTALLATION...

Through the ice...simply augur holes, acclimate the shrimp to the water temperature and chemistry and then pour the shrimp in. The entire process may take 10 to 15 minutes per hole drilled.

No ice?...then simply lay the packages in the water and acclimate.

Follow these instructions for best success...

1) Best to install shrimp the same day, especially if packed tight in coolers

2) Augur holes 30 yards or more from shore with ice auger or chisel.

3) Place transport bag �Top up� in augured hole and then open bag. Leave shrimp in bag to adjust bag water to lake water temperature. If there isn't ice in your location, then perform this procedure along the shore edge.

4) Augur other holes around pond area and place bags as previous.

5) Return to previous bags and slowly add lake water to the shrimp bag to adjust water to lake water chemistry. This is a simple acclimation step to increase the survivability of your shrimp. When acclimated, dump shrimp into hole and gently push under ice if needed. Cover the hole with ice shavings.

Each gallon contains approx. 20 to 40 thousand shrimp!

Planting Rate - 1 to 2 gals. per acre

Bruce, your link contains some conflicting statements.

"They are usually able to adapt to a variety of different freshwater environments including aquariums, and both warm and cold water ponds, though they seem to do best in water that is slightly brackish."

If this is correct than your salinity shouldn�t be a problem. Looks like more homework is needed.

I noticed that too. And it's a very important point for me. I suspect that "salinity" in the form of sodium chloride, in small amounts is well tolerated, and "salt" in the form of some farm runoff and pollutants may not be well tolerated.

Good eye, FamTrad!

The conflicting statements came from separate websites.

Hellooooo, Mr. Cody?? Calling Mr. Cody.

Mr. Cody is back,

Bruce your link is just information about scuds in general. Some species could likely have more specific habitat requirements.

I doubt that the Gammarus sp? from Prairie Land Management (PLM) will be a significiant source of fish parasites because I ASSUME they raise them in fishless habitats thus the life cycle of the parasite is not able to go full cycle in their rearing ponds.

1. Someone should ask PLM if there are fish in their scud ponds. I doubt it, since they have so many scuds. You don't want fish eating the profits.

2. Have we established a specie name for PLM's scuds yet??. I can put a specific name on these guys, if I can get one or two preserved mature individuals to examine. Once we get a specie name we can do some informational searches.


3. Has anyone asked PLM about what species of rooted vegetation are comon to abundant in their scud ponds?


4. In regards to salinity and conflicting statements. I think PLM is referring to significant amounts of salt that are probabaly mesured in parts per thousand and not parts per million. Rarely are our normal freshwater ponds salty enough to measure salts in ppt. Normal hardness should not be a problem with their scuds. In fact harder water due to calcium carbonates may favor them due to calcium needs for carapace (shell) production.

5. Scud release. When I released scuds (Gammarus lacustris) that I bought previously, I used my net dipping, rinse proceedure. I never put anyone else's pondwater into my pond unless I know what is microscopicaly in the water and I have examined it and give it my stamp of approval.

Dip-Rinse Method. I first get a bucket or two of my pond water. A friend with an appropriate sized net. uses three buckets of pond water. I net a few or all the fish or organisms, set the net with organisms in the first bucket, lift and drain. Then repeat the proceedure in the second bucket of my pond water. Lift and allow to drain slightly then relese the organisms into my pond. If there are water temp differences then adjust the delivery water to proper temperature then use the dip-rinse method. I keep a lot of nuisance "stuff" out of my pond by using this method. I advise all local pondowners who use the pond water as household water to sue thjsi method when buying fish. Their ponds usually stay relatively problem free.

I will call PLM tomorrow and give a full report. I will ask about species, presence of fish, types of vegetation, and if we can get a couple of preserved specimens.

Bruce we don't need preserved specimens if they know which species they raise. I will verify their identification of species name when I receive my scud shipment. Maybe instead, ask them what is the maximun size of their scuds.

PS I have the names of the "BUGS" that Bob sent me photos of from your fish pond. I will send them to Bob and CC you.

Bruce, check out eBay. I heard Saddam was selling scuds to help pay for his legal defense.

FamTrad...I see you've been adequately indoctrinated to the Pond Boss zany crew. You're fitting in better and better by the minute.

Left message with PLM 0950 Central time. Nobody at the phone at this time.

Those at PLM were out hand picking scuds. It takes a long time you konow to pick 20,000 scuds to fill a gallon jar. These people are going to think you ar some sort of weird-0 with all your pesty questions.

Perceptive, aren't they?

Ouch!

Theo, Bruce just has to explain to the guy rolling his eyes at him that he is not weird just an enthusiastic (and dedicated) pondmeister. Remember the customer is always right.

Still no answer on my cell or home phone. I'll report again tomorrow.

Kyle at PLM returned my call today and told me that the magic word is...

GAMMARUS LACUSTRIS

I sent them an email with the same question but have not got a reply yet. Thanks Bruce! So is that what we want? Since the source is in my state I'm sure they will do well in my pond but I'm debating whether I can put them in this coming spring in my new pond. It probably won't have any vegetation until end of summer at best.

These are the big boys. They grow huge--over 3/4 of an inch. I think they are what you want. Evidently they only sell them in January through March?? I hope you try it. I'm concerned that I may be a little far south. I will have water temps in the mid-eighties for 2-4 weeks every summer.

That email address is bad. I don't think you'll hear from them. Call the toll free number and ask for Kyle.

bz try a few xmas tress around the pond edge to replace the weeds. Shake the needles off and put in a couple weeks before the scuds. When you get some weeds pull the trees out if you want.

I need to keep bumpin' this baby to make sure Mr. Cody sees it.

Ewest, good idea with the trees. Might work but I may have to put them in this fall since all through January to March my pond will be frozen. Doesn't thaw out until mid April. Maybe I shouldn't have expressed my concern as lack of weeds. What I meant was that the scuds must eat zooplankton or phytoplankton so I'm concerned that the new pond had no chance to grow little critters by spring and will not support scuds that soon. What do you think? currently the pond is half full, no vegetation, but does have some green algae. Bruce, I'm glad to here these are the big guys. I know they grow naturally in all the shallow ponds around the area where PLM is. I've seen and caught them. That's a hotter part of the state than where I am and my water gets to just over 80. So I think perhaps you'll be OK.

From what I understand, the scuds mostly utilize the detritus or decaying plant material that lies on the bottom of the pond. If this is indeed the case, then you probably have quite a bit right now for the scuds to eat. Actually this would be a dream scenario for me because my two best ponds have, no doubt, TONS of this detritus that could be recycled back to fish biomass. I need to check with our biologists at Nebraska Game and Parks Commission because I know that scuds are everywhere in the western part of the state--I just don't know what species.

I know one thing for certain. Lots of scuds = fast growing and big bluegill, redears, and yellow perch.

bz I was not thinking about ice. I think I would take a few buckets of water from your other pond and put them in the new one to seed it and put in some brush. You should get some fall/winter plankton type growth. I would also try to keep the snow off of it so light can get in and help production. I assume you are not going to keep the ice open but that would help also along with clear ice. But first I would check on what they eat and need to survive. I will see what I can find.

http://www.epa.gov/bioindicators/html/amphipods.html

Indicates Bruce is correct. I also saw several references to them eating left over fish food.

Gammarus lacustris are the bigger scuds (3/4"-7/8") and more demanding of cooler temperatures. It is considered not a cool-water but a cold water species, i.e. I am assuming trout type waters. I never could get them to establish themselves in a weedy pond where freshwater shrimp (Palaemonetes-grass shrimp) thrived for me. I would be suprised if Bruce could get them established in his ponds due to elevated summer temperatures. Since they are scavengers they thrive on decaying organic materials. The dense weed beds not only provide food materials but very good protection from predation which can easily lead to elimination. A few brush piles will not be enough cover for scud survival until the next breeding season.

Since scuds are positively thigmotactic (movement toward an object that provides a touch stimulus) fine leafed vegetation is usually best habitat for them. Plants such as sago pondweed and coontail provide lots of surface area for growth of periphytic algae and the associated invertebrates. Both types of growth on the vegetation are probably eaten by scuds in addition to decaying plant materials.

1, Did PLM provide any indication how warm their scud nursery ponds get in the summer?
2. Do their ponds have a cool water refuge for the scuds when mid-summer temps are highest?
3. Is it remotely possible that PLM have their scuds misidentified?

We still have not heard what the dominant vegetation is in their scud ponds.

I think it is very possible that they've qoted the wrong species. The ponds I've seen on the PLM property are just shallow sloughs so I can't believe they stay very cold. I don't if that's where they actually raise them but I don't know of any trout waters anywhere near where they are located. And if they are selling them to attract ducks they are selling them for stocking into shallow sloughs. Doesn't add up. I wanted to put these in my new pond which has no fish in it. My thought was to use it as a scud grow out pond. I envision millions of them so I can net them out and keep moving them to the other pond until I establish a population. My new pond has zero decomposing material in it right now since it is dug out of pure sand and is only a month old. No vegetation either. I think I need to wait a year. I could get some for direct stocking in my HBG pond but I'm afraid they'll just get eaten before they can reproduce.