Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Newbie, Looking for help (alternate scud thread)

Just recently had 3 small tanks combined into on large tank. I do not know if I was lucky or unlucky, because just as the bottom was finished, we got 5 - 6 inches of rain. I have some fish habitat stuctures ready to put in the pond. I have pictures, I just do not know how to add them to the post.

The pond is just over 1 surface acre when full. It will be roughly 8 - 9 feet deep when full.

Anyway, my first question is, should we stock some bait fish now that the pond is a quarter to half full? Is this the first step? Should we fertilize first?

I will continue to read all this good information as I await your quality suggestions.

Prags1 welcome to the PB forum. Glad you joined us in the journey

Try this for posting pics.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000006

Are there fish in the pond now?

To late to fertilize for this year unless you are way south. Get some soil/water samples to check to see if you need lime or other soil enhancers. A few FH would be cheap and would likely make it to winter fill up. Add a couple pallets for them to spawn under.

I doubt that you will get any spawning of forage fish any more this year. Any minnows or bluegill/panfish fingerlings that you add yet this year, will grow to a size large enough to spawn early next spring as soon as the water temperatures increase to minimum temp requirements for spawning. Typically in southern ponds that are bass predator based, the bass are added after some forage are allowed to spawn and provide lots of small fish for the newly introduced predators to eat and grow fast.

In the meantime read, read, read lots of information here, to give you some ideas for the goals that are possible and goals that you want for this pond after it is 4 to 6 years old. Then manage the fishery to achieve those goals. We can supply advice and guidence to help keep you on track toward achieving those goals.

Ewest, thanks for the reply. No fish at all. Pond was completed and that day 3 weeks ago we got tons of rain. I was there today, and saw frogs already enjoying the water.



That is the pond. Here is what I have for fish habitat.





The PVC tree is 5 feet tall, so I was thinking of putting it in the deepest portion of the pond. That would put the top of the tree 3 feet below the surface when full.

I was planning on putting the pallet at a spot where it would end up about the same distance from the surface when full. The cinder blocks will be used to keep the structure down.

The PVC hotels, I was planning on putting more in the shallow areas.

Some of my friends are telling me to add bait fish asap. If they will surive, I am ready to do that.

BTW, I did just by a PB book and hope to get to read that as soon as it arrives.

Please keep the suggestions coming, and I will continue to read,read, read

Looks like you've been doing your homework.

A warm, hearty welcome from all of us. We hope you'll continue to keep good records and inform us of observations that you make throughout the process. Your pond looks like it will be awesome.

You've yet to tell us what you've decided on your ultimate goal for the fishery.

What will the bait fish eat at this time? How do they survive?

My goal for this pond is to grow and catch 4-8 lbs. bass consistantly. I know it will take some time to get to that point. I do not want to rush anything, but if adding bait fish now and they will survive, I am willing to add them now. I know it is getting late for them to spawn, but again of they will survive and be able to spawn in the spring, I just assume add them now instead of later.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

Sam, there is really nothing for the forage to eat at this time. They live on tiny bugs that live on zooplankton which live on phytoplankton. I doubt if there is a good phyto base yet.


Prags, give the pond water some time to become naturally fertile. In West Texas, you probably don't need fertilizer. And, if you don't need it, you dang sure don't want it.

I would consider using some of your mesquite for some brush piles in addition to your man made structure, unless there is some reason not to use it.

Prags1 sent me an email asking if minnows or young bluegill are stocked into this new pond will they have something to eat. Here is my answer -
For your comment of: "One question, if adding the minnows or bluegill/panfish fingerlings now, will they have enough to eat in a 3 week old pond?�.

The answer all depends on the current conditions of the new pond.

1. What is the water source for filling the pond? Watershed runoff and stream water introduces or seeds into the pond a host of many types of microscopic fish food. These introductions then reproduce and mulitply if conditons are "RIGHT". If well water or just rain water fills the pond then the community of microscopic and larger invertebrates have to naturally develop in the pond which is a somewhat slower process that can take months or years for a HIGHLY DIVERSE microscopic fish food commumity to develop. However ponds can and do quickly develop within a few weeks a basic microscopic food chains that contain what I will call the simple food chain consisting of several dominant planktonic and benthic invertebrate species. This early food chain is very adequate to feed the first stocking of minnows and or some small bgills.

2. Fertility of the new pond will determine how many of the tiny fish food types that will develop. Fertility will cause more food to grow which will ultimately feed more fish biomass. Fertility (fertilizer - nutrients) will not be effective and cause the adequate foods and amounts to develop without the proper water hardness or alkalinity. So only sometimes fertilizing a pond will stimulate more rapid and greater amounts of fish food for small fish. Sometimes just "weeds" develop when fertilizer is added.

3. What is the water clarity of the pond as it fills or after it is full? If the water clarity is greatly reduced due to mud, clay or other inorganic dirt particles suspended in the water, then this can suppress the overall development of the planktonic (free floating) organisms. Amount of suppression that the turbidity imparts is pretty much inversly proportional to the amount of silt - more silt results in less plankton. Silt also interferes with the life functions of filter feeding zooplankton. The plant plankton needs to receive light to stimulate the growth process. Without light penetration into the water plankton reproduction is hindered and it is basically limited to the water depth (upper shallow zone) where adequate light concentrations are present. - usually the upper couple of feet.

4. If your pond has water clarity of 18" to 2ft then a "normal" microscopic plankton can develop if an average or minimal water fertility (nutrients) is present. If only rain water or well water is filling the pond, then you might want to introduce or seed some basic types of beneficial zooplankton into the pond to "jump start" or enhance the basic fish food chain.

Normally, seeding of zooplankton into a pond is NOT necessary and Mother Nature quickly does this for you. The soil and airborne spores or resting stages of algae & zooplankton are typically ever-present in the environment. Fish hatchery water often contains many of these microscopic viable and dormant organisms and sometimes even the unwanted or nuisance species are present. How well all the organisms that get seeded into the pond survive, always depends on the overall water quality of the pond.

You can collect your own zooplankton seed water by transferring 5 to 10 gallons of water into your pond from another healthy pond with good water quality. However this is always a "crap shoot" because you do not know for sure what is microscopically in the other pond�s water. IDEALLY you want to try and get water from a pond that does not have a history of nuisance algae blooms such as those caused by numerous bluegreen (Cyanobacteria) species. Unless you know all the basic annual cycles of the donor pond be careful about deciding about using this method.

Another good and safer zooplankton seeding process is to purchase some live zooplankton (Crustacean) cultures from a biological supply company such as Carolina Science. I would recommend any one or a combination of the cultures of Crustaceans mixed, Copepods, or Daphnia pulex. Each small culture sells for around $6.25 to $10.25; shipping charges will vary depending which form you choose. You only need one to a couple of the individual cultures. If conditions are correct in your pond, and it is fishless, then the seeded zooplankters will rapidly reproduce, to within a week or two, produce millions of new individuals to serve as a basis for the food chain-web in your pond. See the link below for an example of some crustacean zooplanktonic organisms that are available by mail order.

https://www2.carolina.com/webapp/wcs/sto... tom=Y&top=N

So depending on your answers to the above items, then hopefully your answers will give you an idea if newly introduced fish will have enough to eat. As a general rule the smaller the new fish are, the better the chances are that they will have enough appropriately sized food items for growth and a thriving survival in a new pond. Larger sized stocker fish obviously come from an established pond that had an established and diverse food web or chain. Putting large fish into a new pond is unwise unless you have taken numerous PROPER steps to insure the presence of a full or healthy food chain. Good and diverse organisms in a food chain takes some time to develop in a new pond.

Since it is past the spawning season for minnows, I recommend that you wait another several weeks and to stock any fingerling fish. This will allow some more time to hopefully increase the water clarity (sediment settling) and the surface area (more filling) and more importantly allow a little more time for the invertebrate and plankton communities to get seeded, reproduce and flourish based on your present pond conditions. Take the time now to do some homework and decide where the best place is to buy some good quality fish fingelings and try to purchase them before December. This will give these forage fish and or panfish fingerlings some time during fall and winter to get established, produce a little growth and or improved body condition (fat). Then they will be able to be in good condition to reproduce next spring to provide an abundant supply of healthy forage fish.

Good luck with your new pond and ask more questions on Pond Boss as the pond community develops. It would be beneficial to purchase Bob Lusks Pond Management and Trophy Bass Raising books. See how to order them from the Home Page of the Pond Boss Website.

For Coleman County, Texas, it's a good idea to establish forage fish this fall. Although water is a bit muddy, you won't be stocking many pounds of fish, and there will quickly be enough food for fathead minnows to eat. Bluegill fingerlings can also glean enough food to grow some over the fall and winter months. Water temps probably won't drop below 45 during winter, so the cold won't be a big deal. My Texas recommendation is to plan to stock fish this fall. Stock based on your goals.

Great answer Bill. That is an archive answer to how long do I have to wait to stock. I did not know you could purchase crustacean zooplanktonic organisms . I may give them a try just for the heck of it.

Prags1 said "Just recently had 3 small tanks combined into on large tank." I assumed that meant 3 small existing ponds were connected. That, if correct, should help jump start the plankton community. It has also had water for at least 3 weeks.

Food Items Reported for Pimephales promelas

http://www.fishbase.org/TrophicEco/FoodI...pecies=promelas

I would try 2lbs of FH that were spawned early this spring and see if they would have a late spawn this fall. Not many $ risked and you might get lucky. If not they will spawn next spring. If things go ok then BG about a month later.

ewest - I am working this up as an archive post to appear within a couple days.

Older established ponds always have the planktonic crustaceans (mixed, Copepods and Daphnia) listed on that Carolina website. I always find them in ponds that I sample which is where Bob is coming from with his early stocking advice. I have yet to find the basic zooplankers absent. Stocking them into an older pond is in my opinion not a wise use of your money. Your money would be put to better use if you bought their scuds (Amphipods) or a pond management book.

Thanks Bill I will look for the new archive. Working on renovating a pond now. Will be drained soon. I may try some there.

Bill, scuds did not come up on search of the carolina site. Is that a mispelling or a weapon against blue green algae?
thanx

CliffB - Sorry for the confusion. I am glad you caught my error. Scuds is the common name for amphipods (Amphipoda - Class) and they are first on the Carolina list. Carolina does not mention which species you will receive. The item detail mentions that you may not even receive the common form of amphipod - Gammarus. I would not buy from them unless they could supply the genus and species name. Usually scuds inhabit weedy or heavily vegetated, shallow pond areas. BE sure you have some dense weedy areas for long term survival or you are for sure wasteing your money. Some species are basically stream or cold water species. I fixed the error in my above post.

I've been considering planting scuds in my new forage pond. My dilemna is that I want a forage pond from which I can transfer forage to my HBG fish pond. But I also built my new pond with a shallow end that will hopefully attract waterfowl. Big news here in MN lately is that ponds stocked with FH minnows by bait dealers are ruined for waterfowl. The fatheads eat all the copepods and amphipods that ducks really like. I'm looking for anyone with experience stocking scuds and catching them later. I did find a company that sells scuds for reasonable price. I think they had very large batches rather than just a scientific sample. I'll look it up and report back. I also plan to plant water celery, burr reed, and other waterfowl freindly aquatic vegetation in my shallow areas.

I'd like a further report when you get a chance about availability of bulk scuds. Then I'll ask Bill for opinion as to whether that species can thrive in Nebraska. Thanks, bz.

Bruce, here you go. http://www.habitatnow.com/habitat_info_waterfowl.htm

This place is called Prairie Land Management and they sell scuds by the gallon, 20,000 to 40,000 per gallon, $85 per gallon. Best part for me is that this company is right here in MN. Isn't that something. I looked all over to find a bulk source for these and they reside about 3 miles from my lake place. I drive by there all the time but never noticed them. I'm thinking about ordering a bunch next spring and stock my forage pond to see how they do before putting any minnows in. I think it would be wise to call them to see what species they sell. I want the magnum ones, they get up to 3/8 inch long. Perfect BG feed. Whatever they sell my guess is if it thrives in MN it will do OK in NE.

That definitely looks like what I want. Bill Cody can you tell if this is the type of scuds that we want? 85 bucks doesn't sound bad for a couple of my .15 acre ponds.

http://www.habitatnow.com/store/shop/shop.php?pn_selected_category=19

This is the specific page for scud ordering.

Thanks bz! I'd have never found that in a million years. It wouldn't have dawned on me to check waterfowl websites. Bill here's a better page.

http://www.habitatnow.com/store/shop/product-detail.php?pn_product_id=31

bz and Bruce - I can not identify the species from the photo. Fine structures are used and need to be seen to taxonomically separate Gammarus fasciatus from Gammarus lacustris. Plus the seller my have "borrowed" the photo from some other source and it might not be the same species that he sells.

From my searches G.lacustris is a cool water (trout type waters) species and will not tolerate warm waters which could prevent it from reproducing. I think the species we want is G. fasciatus (14mm - 1/2"-9/16"); it does not get as big as G.lacustris (22mm - 7/8"), but it tolerates warmer waters and will more likely survive in our ponds.

bz needs to first do two things. 1. ask the seller for a species name and maximum size. Max size may tell us which specie it is.
2. Ask the seller what is the dominate rooted weeds species in the ponds where they get their scuds. Ask if they raise them or if they harvest from the wild. If they raise the scuds themselves then they will be able to provide helpful advice about providing the correct habitat so the scuds reproduce and thrive for us. I suspect they raise these in swampy, weedy - fine leafed, deeper wetlands without fish. Wood (Canada) sees lots of G.lacustris in combination with coontail.

Thanks bz for your help.

I have already contacted them and left a message asking what species. I'm pretty sure they raise these cause as I said I've driven by the place and they have several natural ponds on the property where I've seen boats and nets sitting around. They also have fields of native prairie stuff growing that they sell. I always just thought they had a minnow bait business going and the the also sold prairie plants. Until I saw the web site I had no idea they also did aquatic stuff. I'll let you all know what I here from them. I duck hunt in this area and I know the other natural ponds are thick with scuds. I've netted them myself. I figured if I couldn't find some to buy somewhere I'd go catch a bunch myself. But for $85 I think I'll let them do the catching.

I'm curious as to why they mention a sensitivity to salinity. I would have assumed that they would tolerate a little bit, since most freshwater organisms are OK up to 8 ppt, including practically all fish. I would need to find out for sure since my ponds are right at 6 ppt.

Thanks for the link BZ! Now you have me thinking about ordering some scuds for our pond. They would do well in our aquatic vegetation.