Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Small pond in the woods

I bought a wooded property with an old pond in the woods. The trees grew right along the edges, on the dam and damn near right over the top of the pond. As you can guess there are tons of leaves in the pond. The water looks almost black. Lots of frogs and turtles (neighbor catches both out of it). Dog likes to swim in it. I have been told that years ago it was a great fishing spot. Would the PB experts here recommend cutting back the trees to get rid of the leaves building up? Would that also allow light to get to it and help or hurt? I would like to reestablish the fish and get rid of the leaves and blackis look. Also what do they mean when the say the pond turned over?

Mike the experts will want the details re the pond
length, width, depth. Leaves and ponds are bad so reducing them by removal has got to be good. We have a similiar problem, my 100x300 pond is surrounded by birch trees, its about 7 foot deep at its deepest. I have had an estimate to pump out the muck ($3,000) and an estimate to deepen it ($3,000) by a few feet. I opted to start with an aerator ($500) as apparently the bubbles ie oxygen help with muck reduction...and fish like it too

The only thing worse than live trees on the dam are dead trees. If you have large established trees on your dam it is usually best to leave them alone and hope for the best. If you chop these trees down the roots will rot and this may cause a leak. Smaller trees should be removed from the dam before the roots grow deep enough to cause problems.

Have you sampled the fish population yet?

Mike, as David says, how big is it? And, like Jayman says, proceed with real caution re trees on the dam. Yes, I would eliminate the trees around the sides. They take without giving. You also need to consider how to keep new leaves from other trees further uphill out.

Are there any fish left in it?

A small pond in the woods; how poetic.

Welcome, Mikecales!

There is unrest in the forest.
There is trouble with the trees;
for the Maples want more sunlight
and the Oaks ignore their pleas.


The trouble, say the Maples
(and they're quite convinced they're right),
The Oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.


But the Oaks can't help their feelings
if they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the Maples
can't be happy in their shade.


There is trouble in the forest,
and the creatures all have fled,
As the Maples scream "Oppression!"
And the Oaks just shake their heads.


So the Maples formed a union
and demanded equal rights.
"The Oaks are just too greedy;
we will make them give us light!"


Now there's no more Oak oppression,
For they passed a "noble" law.
Now the trees are all kept equal
by hatchet, axe, and saw.

Rush rules.

Wow, Bruce; sounds like the Liberals won.

JayMan, by the looks of it, your pond has some leaves that accumulate in and around your very nice pond. could you please advise as to what methods you use to keep your pond so clear and by the looks of the one pic, with the bass, also very fishable.

Mike:

As noted above, trees on the dam are a serious, potentially sticky issue. The rest of the trees surrounding the pond have less serious (or at least longer time-framed) affects. Leaves and other organics regularly deposited in the water effectively shorten the life of the pond by filling it in with muck, so removal is generally a good thing. You might consider leaving a few strategically located trees near the pond to serve for shade and fishing lure collection.

DD:

You've interpreted the last verse differently than me (feel better now? :rolleyes: ). For nearly 30 years, I've been thinking "clear cut" every time I hear that song.

What music means really is up to the listener to decide!

Bruce:

This is scary, man . I've got every freaking Rush album, from Alex, Geddy, and John the power trio to Alex, Geddy, and Neil playing 6 or 7 different instruments at the same time, live.

Did you get turned on to Rush in Larry Spence's basement in March of '77 too? I don't remember seeing you there, but that's not too surprising.

....I thought he meant Rush Limbaugh. I think he hung out in Larry Spence's basement while the 'shrooms were in bloom.

Larry Spence, Sunil and I actually used to play in a rock group together.

It was called "Bhudopond", but was essentially a Rush tribute band.

Well, I guess it all depends (where have I heard that before?)

The pictures are a bit deceiving. One side of my pond is indeed lined with mature trees. Mostly oaks. I would estimate the base of these trees to be about 15-20 feet from the ponds edge. Also on this side of the pond are quite a few smaller recruits that I keep thinned. The rest of the pond is surrounded by lawn, a bramblle patch and just a couple trees. No trees on the main damn.

I do not have any problem getting enough water so watering the trees does not concern me. I do get a lot of leaves in the pond. It has resulted in 4-12+ inches of "muck" on the bottom. Not an ideal situation, but not the end of the world either, especially considering the pond is at least 50 years old. Last year I had problems with algae but that was the only year (I have owned it for 6yrs). I have a little pondweed each year but nothing major. I cannot really explain why all this organic fertilizer does not cause problems. Just lucky I guess. FYI my ph is generally around 7.5 and my alkalines are usually on the low side 20 -30. Perhaps that has something to do with it?

You guys a crazy !! A lot of irony in the above words. Majority rule unchecked by the protection of individual rights guaranteed in the constitution (law) is nothing more than mob rule (anarchy).


If the land owner decided to cut his trees then we all won because he got to do what he thought best with his land. If he decided to let the oaks stand as they were created , we still won because again he did what he thought best and likewise if he cut the oaks to let the others grow. As long as no one passes an un-noble law to tell you what to do with your land , we all win.

I think the words are more about artistic expression. The oaks are symbolic of oppression. The maples are a souls struggle to be free and the hatchet axe and saw are musical instruments, brushes or tools to release that artists expression.

But then again, this Tom Sawyer may have went too far down the river. :rolleyes:

PFF :

You may be right but I hope not. If you are then according to them our souls and freedoms are at the mercy of tools wielded by some artists never to sore on wings like eagles.

I don't think Tom Sawyer would stand for that - he liked his freedom to much.

The honorable Neil Peart of the world's greatest trio of musicians to take on the hard rock genre ie RUSH has never spelled out exactly what he meant. Some think black/white others think french/english speakers etc when comparing the oaks to the maples.

My pond is on the order of 1/4 acre to 1/2 acre. I do not know of any fish although as stated originally many of the old timers in my area say it once was a great bass pond. They all refer to it turning over.

I did not think anyone on PB would get my RUSH signature line and I am happy to see I was wrong.

I will cut back the trees all around the pond and leave the mature trees on the dam.

Should I reach in with a track hoe and maybe clean out the organic debris that is currently in there?

Never spelling out exactly what he meant was undoubtedly a stroke of genius. That's why the song can stay relevant for so many years to so many people.

That's why I think MTV has diminished musical impact, because it attaches a specific image to each song, leaving the auditory imagination to fight to visual images.

Does anybody remember where I posted my definition of a pond "turning over"? Somebody asked, and I responded, but I searched and can't find the thread. I think it would help Mike to understand the phenomenon.

....wait, here it is.


Picture yourself deep underwater. You're in your own pond and you're 14 feet down. It's summer time and there's a big ol' high pressure system that's been delivering 99 degrees temperatures, but the water is cool and heavy. Look around. You don't see any rooted plants. It's too dark for plants to grow. You don't see any live algae even. The light is too thin for even single-celled plants to grow. What you do see is crud. Lots of it. Dead algae from above is drifting down, dead leaves, chunks of dead fish. It's all falling down in a slow gentle rain around you. There is one organism that likes it where you are. It's bacteria. Nasty little critters too small for the eye to see. These bacteria feed on all the debris but they don't produce a speck of oxygen. The water is cold, heavy..dense and dark. Up on the surface it's windy out today. The wind is ramping off your south road at about 30 knots, but you can't feel it. Just the dark and the cold. And absolutely NO oxygen.

Now picture yourself about four feet under the surface. The water is really warm, like a bathtub. Maybe 18 degrees warmer than down on the bottom! But plants are all around. Algae everwhere. Rooted plants, too. All producing oxygen. That wind is creating whitecaps above you. Oxygen is king. The water isn't as heavy either. It's lighter and less dense. It dances on top of the deeper, colder layer like a hot air balloons drift above the land.

Now, as fall arrives and the nights start to cool, the surface temperature starts to creep down. The differential that was once 18 degrees is 16, then it's 13, and ten and eight. Suddenly the warm water isn't dancing anymore. It's nearly as heavy as the water below. It's like your eleven-year-old son who wants a piggy back ride. He might just collapse on top of you!

Then something happens. It's cool and windy out, or there's a cool rain falling and that differential drops to about nothing and WHOOSH!!! the pony ride is over. Top and bottom mix, maybe in just a couple of hours. All of the crud and anoxic water is suddenly everywhere. Oxygen plummets, clarity plummets, and shoreline plants sometimes even starve for light and die.

Anywayssssss........What I'm saying is that it's not so much the differential that makes it turn over, it's the reduction and elimination of the differential. Your three degree difference, if following a couple of months of larger differentials could make you about to "flip". Once it does there will be a period of time where the temperature differential will virtually cease to exist. Now if you've been aerating all summer, then you've likely never had this big differential and you may not turn over at all.

Mike:

Aeration is probably the best thing, long term, you can do. There are many reports that over time it will allow the amount of muck in the pond to decrease, by letting it, well, oxydize into free nutrients.

The depth of the pond that has been lost to muck would be an indication whether or not mechanical muck removal might be warranted. IF you have no fish remaining, that makes it a better time to remove muck (no fish to worry about killing).

We are an eclectic bunch here, increasingly growing larger and more varied.

"I have learned how good it is that strengths be different, so that they may be shared."
- Poul Anderson

It's hard to come up with something so obscure that SOMEONE doesn't get it.



-Theo Gallus, New World Man

Speak for yourself Theo. At Muleshoe, Texas, we got formalized outdoor plumbing with a half moon on the door when I was 5 years old. All the relatives and neighbors came to see a perfectly good waste of lumber. Then we got a windmill. I think I was in Junior High before we got any eclectic. The phones came much later.

ROTFLOL

Dave is it a very long way from Muleshoe to anywhere ?

Check out this site . I have no idea if it is correct. Some of you who know about Rush may go look if you want and comment.

http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.8.22.0219.37804.html

"You see, Rush is a Canadian band, and as such they know first hand how the forces of socialism can destroy all that is important in man. Why this skill developed solely in Peart and not Lifeson or Lee is due to Peart's journey to England when he was eighteen. It was there that he first came to truly understand how important Objectivism is, utilizing the excessive governmental involvement in daily life prevalent in England as a catalyst for his enlightenment.

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?

There is trouble in the Forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the Maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the Oaks, just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
'These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light.'
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Ax,
And saw.
Rush - The Trees
Indeed, we are kept down with hatchet, ax and saw. This parable clearly underscores how the small people continue to force those graced with power and influence to bend to the will of those who are not worthy, resorting to violence rather than reason to have their way. The music of Rush asks: Which are you? A noble oak, rising towards the sun, or a weak maple, whining about the unfairness of it all rather than bettering yourself through improved photosynthesis and nutrient gathering? The implied inferiority of the maple, national tree of Canada, is clearly intentional and represents Peart's dissatisfaction his socialist homeland."

That might be one of the funniest things I've ever read.

I always thought Rush was talking about taxation and public assistance. It was only later that I identified the oaks as possibly meaning those "born to the purple and ermine".

Eric, Muleshoe is pretty close to Lazbuddie, Bovina, Progress and Lariat. Farwell is pretty close and Clovis, New Mexico was the big city with a Doctor. It is flat land blessed with sandstorms, blizzards and cyclones. With the exception of big farmers and ranchers, nobody had 2 nickels to rub together. Everybody in the County knew who could or could not be trusted and a mans word was his bond. Welfare meant neighbors helping neighbors. All of the "doins" were at the Oddfellow Lodge or one of the multitude of Baptist Churches. As a kid, I couldn't imagine a better place to be. Of course, like an awful lot of small towns, a High School Grad without well-to-do family had to go to elsewhere to find opportunity.

Dave Bovina MS is about 30 miles from me and that is a Long way from Muleshoe, but not to far from Panther Burn , Hot Coffee , Midnight or D'Lo .