Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations First post....Am I babbling????? Nah...Just excited!!!!

Hi all......first post after trying to digest all the information here for the past few months. I hope this is an o.k place to post as I figured I may get aeration, plants, or stocking comments. Any and all is appreciated!!

Here goes......2 ponds....puddles to alot of you :p . Both ponds were completely drained, deepened, and enlarged. Both were 6-8ft deep prior to renovation. They both filled back in with surface run off in early January. They are connected by a swale. Clay bottom, fish structure in place, void of any submerged vegetation(for now). I'm sure that will happen all by itself!!! Both ponds will be planted with native emergent plants come spring for erosion control and habitat. Fish stocking is planned with forage this spring and predators in the fall or next spring(2007). Standard fathead, HBG, LMB mix but would also like to give perch and rainbows a shot. Oxygen/temperature meter purchased and ready to go. I will be "actively" managing these ponds to the best of my and YOUR ability . My parent's ponds and $$$$ so WE better manage them well or they'll fire ME for sure .

Pond 1 is .45ac (135 x 148)+/- Pear shaped, bisected diagonally, with approximately 2/3 15ft deep and 1/3 25ft deep at high water. Anticipate it to drop to about 11ft and 21ft(worst case) by fall 2006. Based on the soil cross section.

Pond 2 is .16ac +/- Slight heart shape but pretty much a circle(97 feet across) at the surface but really is a 25ft deep funnel. Same soil conditions so a 3-4 foot drop is also anticipated.

Q1. Used a Gast 1/4hp rotary vane compressor with 2 membrane diffusers in each pond for the past two years(1 compressor/2 diffusers per pond). 1/2" weighted tubing. Both compressors are within 25' of the water so not long runs by any means i.e volume loss. They are advertised as good to 18' and 4.2cfm. With the added depth is there any reason to upgrade the aerators? Given the limited size of the ponds and dreams of healthy trout and perch, I'd like to make as much of the ponds usable to the fish as possible. If I put the diffusers at the maximum rated depth, they won't be at the "true" bottom. Will that last seasonal 3-7ft +/- of "non-aerated" water still be moved or could it become a dead zone?

Q2. Stocking - fatheads and HBG this spring. LMB later. Maximum stocking numbers by 2 suppliers here in MI are identical in their catalogs/websites. 300 3-4" HBG, 75 4-6" Channel cats, 75 4-5" perch, 50 4-6" bass and 2gal minnows @ 8lbs/gal. Not interested in the catfish and would like to substitute with trout. Given the fact these are maximums for 1/2 acre, I will cut the numbers back accordingly. The smaller of the two ponds will NOT be stocked with this mix. What should I put in it?? How many and what size trout would be a good number in this ratio? Would the LMB and trout go in at the same time? Would the perch go in now or later? I've seen it suggested they go in with the forage. I understand the trout and perch idea may not work so well but I see this whole thing as a challenge!!

I've used enough bandwidth for now. Thanks in advance. Let the games begin!!

Chuck

Glad you're here, ChuckC.

Coupla questions early. Why the HBG instead of true bluegill? Just wondering.

Could you possibly use your DO meter to monitor water quality throughout the summer before deciding whether your current aeration system is adequate?

I'm not qualified to answer questions regarding aeration, but I do know that a lot can be learned through observations during the first few months.

I am at least partially qualified to talk bluegill and forage issues and am always curious why the hybrid bluegill is so often mentioned as an primary consumer early in the pond stocking process. They will eat a lot of the same things that your bass population will want to utilize. Just wonderin'.

And... they will not provide adequate offspring forage for you bass. Sounds like a fish supplier thta doesn't carry regular bluegills is doing a good sales job.

However with that small of ponds regular bluegills could get out of hand fast don't you think Bruce? So maybe hybrids would be the choice but don't expect much good bass in those ponds and the small size of the ponds has the odds against a good bass fishery anyway. Unless you go with feed trained bass and keep feeding them.

You rainbows will go belly up in summer. You can count on it. I would only put rainbows in if you want to fish them out by late spring.

Yellow perch will over populate your ponds really fast unless you are able to get only females.

You just need to do some tweeking my friend and hopefully you will get better the information you need on this site.

You can have a pretty darn good fishery in these size ponds if you are willing to pay close attention to harvest and water quality, but I'd keep the fish population simple to start with. Fewer species in the original stocking could minimize headaches later on. Cecil knows more about trout and perch than anybody so I'd listen to him.

Just throwing out suggestions, but why not bass and bluegill initially, then judiciously add other bonus fish later when you have a good grip on the dynamic of the pond. It is extremely common for people to want EVERYTHING in their pond, but often found out that the investment they made in the extra fish initially could have been saved or used for water quality enhancements. My simplest recommendation, in a nutshell, is as follows:

PAY ATTENTION TO KEEPING YOUR WATER QUALITY AT ITS OPTIMAL LEVEL!!

You've already shown a tendency toward this kind of thinking with your purchase of DO/temp meter. I'd strongly suggest that you keep your costs down on stocking, and do a great job this summer of documenting and charting what your water temps and DO's do during the heat of the summer. Then, as things progress, you can find out what other species will thrive. I'd also seriously consider creating a situation where you can either de-water or seine your ponds to control populations in the future. I have several ponds in this size range and I have ZERO chance of overpopulation because I can push the reset button on a whim if I make or mistake or things get out of hand.

Bruce

HBG was referenced in my post because that's what seems to be predominant at the numerous hatcheries/fish farms listed at the MI Dept of AG web site and at the suppliers I'm most familiar with. I've pulled the list back out and see some sell both but not the two suppliers referenced. I do not have a preference unless it's the "right" or better one to stock. I thought the true bluegill WAS in fact the one I should choose based on posts here and other research. I will definitely take your "partial" qualification into to consideration!!! Should I take that as a vote for true blugill?

I was hoping to deal with one supplier but in the long run if it takes more than one to help this project work. I will do that.

I had planned on doing regular monitoring. I could still stock the forage in the spring...correct? The DO/temperature requirements of the forage is not as difficult to maintain/sensitive as the trout/perch....reasonable statement?? I look forward to partial or fully qualified aeration comments.

Chuck

Yes, you absolutely can and should stock forage in the spring.

My own, somewhat cynical opinion is that some (NOT ALL) suppliers like to push HBG because they can charge more initially and will get you as a repeat customer because these fish will need to be eradicated, then restocked in the future.

I'm personally a strong proponent of true bluegill as a forage for creating good, balanced LMB fisheries, even in small ponds. Feeding can further enhance the bluegill population and create more, healthier YOY bluegill each year for bass to feast on, but once again water quality is paramount if you are going to heat up the food chain with a few pellets.

What's up, Chuck?

So far I have ascertained this much of your goals:
1) You don't want catfish (no problem, don't stock any)
2) You would like trout (listen to Cecil; if he says they won't make it year-round, believe him. But you can stock them seasonally Fall thru Spring if you want.)

IF I were in your shoes, I think I'd do two separate stocking plans, each with a different emphasis. IMHO your smaller pond would be an excellent size to stock with HBG and some HSB, if you are willing to feed them. I'd stock FH in it this spring. Put HBG in the small pond this Fall; add HSB in the Fall or next Spring (IIRC the HSB experts may have warned that Fall stockers are slow growers; this may only apply to some sizes, or I may be completely off base. Bruce, George, et al. will know).

For the larger pond, I'd try for more of a Bass fishery. I'd stock FH, GShiners, and regular BG this Spring, then follow up with a limited number of LMB in the Fall or Spring 2007. Pellet trained LMB, if available, would allow a larger Bass biomass total in this .45 acre pond

In the future, the small pond could be restocked with more (larger) HBG & HSB; you have the options of 1) utilizing LMB culled from the big pond for additional predators and 2) stocking Male BG from the big pond and feeding them instead of HBG.

If any of this appeals, we can work out stocking numbers and saner minds than mine can correct them.

Welcome to the forum.

An additional, slightly more altruistic reason for HBG preference by fish sellers is that they haul well.

I really like Theo's ideas of using the two ponds for different goals. Many folks do not have this luxury. The ponds are small enough that you should feel free to play. They're yours, and you deserve it. Just think, ask questions, but be willing to follow your own instincts and desires in the end. What's the worst that can happen??

Good point.

My friends get frustrated with me as I am the type to think/research/read alot before I act. Patience is not a problem.

The "bonus" fish can wait. I was just seeing what kind of bites I would get mentioning perch/trout. After reading the forums for a few months, I am pretty familar and respect Cecil's comments. Thank you for replying Cecil. I figured you would burst my trout/perch bubble!! :-) Would it be the ponds themselves(depth/size/shape, etc) or my lack of experience or some of both which has you emphatically ruling out year round survival of trout?

Since there are two ponds, could the smaller one be dedicated to perch and the larger one bluegill/bass?? I'm guessing mother nature would somehow some way EVENTUALLY mix it up. Kinda like peanut butter and chocolate.....mmmm Reeses. I just like the thought of eating perch over bass/bluegill!! Along with my peanut butter cups!!

Chuck

Welcome to the PB forum Chuck. Glad you joined in. Good options above. If you go with Theo's small pond option you could also slip in a few YP along with the HSB (same size for both) and after the HBG and FH go in. They would help get rid of any HBG offspring (esp. in winter) but you may need to add a few more FH. I am not sure I understand Theo's second part comment on the small pond wrt male BG. I like the concept of BG and the male only choice , but not if there are HBG in the pond. That could result in more crazy BG crosses. Studies reveal that HBG are from 66% to 97% male but the females can (we think -- mixed data) backcross with the male BG and create more of a mess. I think he means stock the male BG after the first HBG are gone. It is a lot of fun planning ponds and thinking through the choices. Good luck.

For the trout guys-- how would RT and all male BG work in the same small pond? Feed to size and catch out the RT by warm up and add some more in the fall.

Perch are fabulous eating, I agree.

Doing a summer long water analysis wrt temps, thermocline, DO, etc, would reveal the wisdom of making an effort at YP. You may be far enough north. Again, Cecil knows best.

ChuckC: here is an idea for your smaller lake. A friend of mine has a very small lake with 6-8 species in it. There is no reproduction what so ever. Also, he does not depend on forage raised in his lake. In his case, he has a small lake with all of the fathead minniows he could ever use. This isn't any different than having all the fish eating pellets.

He has LMB, SMB, white bass, rock bass, white crappie, black crappie, bluegill, HBG, walleye and yellow perch. He adjusts his lake accourding to what he likes to fish. This is not a self-sustaining lake. From my perspective, who cares. It has fish in it that are fun to catch and that's all I care about.

A Smallmouth - Yellow Perch mix could be an option too.

Eric is in his second year of trying that. I'm excited to hear what he sees this spring '06.

Chuck - What part of MI are you from? Who are your two fish suppliers??. I know about most of the southern&mid-state ones that advertise. For the other members here, I don't think Hyb striped bass (HSB) are sold or are not commonly available in MI.

1. I assume, that Chuck assumed, that he could raise trout in his pond since they were relatively DEEP. This is a common falsehood or wives tale that prevails in NW OH, NE IN, and southern MI. You need cool water AND high oxygen to keep trout alive in midsummer. I have had a few pondowners keep rainbow trout alive all year in NEW deep ponds in NW Ohio for the first year or two, then the trout start having survival problems. These few NEW ponds are initially fairly oligotrophic (nutrient poor) as new clear water ponds, and these ponds maintain fairly high DO at or in the upper thermocline throughout the summer, especially if the summer is not too hot. During an unusually hot summer (numerous 90F days), it does NOT work. As these clear water ponds age and nutrients continue to accumulate the higher oxygen concentrations deteriorate right above and in the thermocline, thus the mid-summer temerature refuge is no longer present and trout then die in July August. It only takes 1 hour of low DO and trout are dead. Bottom line I think you might be able to have trout in one of the ponds for the 1st year or two DEPENDING on prevailing conditions. NOW THE KICKER - if you throughly mix these ponds with bottom aeration, I am pretty sure you will destroy the cool water temperature refuge (destratification) that the trout need in mid-summer. Cecil manages to raise fabulous trout in tiny ponds with well water additions and proper aeration and experience and maybe a couple of secrets.

2. As we are seeing there are Lots of options for fish stocking in these two ponds.

3. Keep in mind that you could use the smaller pond to just raise forage fish to stock into the larger pond.

4. In this small minnow pond, you could easily stock some only male bluegills for put and take recreational fishing for trophy bgill. CHUCK - I highly advise you get the Mar-Apr 06 current issue (now out) and the May-Jun 06 issue of Pond Boss magazine. In them, Bruce, Cecil, and I discuss throughly the concept of raising trophy male bluegill (10"-12")in small ponds. It is a definate fish stocking option for you to consider.

3. I have not produced my article for PBoss mag yet about raising yellow perch in small ponds. I am still refining the technique. But you can use either pond to raise 12" to probably 14" yellow perch - no problem. We do it all the time in NW Ohio. Contact me by email if interested in this for 3 preliminary articles.

4. I agree with others above leave the catfish out if you don't plan on eating them on a regular basis. You are getting a sales pitch from the hactchery, lots of fish farms do it. Most hatcheries have generalized stocking plans for the average customer in their area. Most hatcheries are not interested in spending time with you discussing the options and diferent fish raising techniques. It takes too long and wastes too much of their time esp if other customers are lined up. Keep in mind that lots of fish farms specialize in rising small fingerling fish and they do not specialize in growing the fish they sell to be larger or trophy sized fish. They want to get to the next customer. They want YOU to use their stocking plan, buy it, and leave. They know you will probably be back for more fish later. Most small time and some large hatcheries thrive on their local business since they have little competition.

5. The connecting swale between the two ponds concerns me. I foresee fish moving between the two ponds during high water events. Is this possible?. If so, then cross contamination will occur. Keep that in mind regarding the species of fish you choose. Fish esp smaller ones will move through 2" of water to the other pond when the two are connected with high water conditions.

6. The maximum depths also concern me regarding the air compressor you have (rotary). As you mentioned, 18 ft is about maximum depth to push air to for prolonged periods. I had a fellow buy his 3rd air rotary compressor from me this winter because his aerator seller/installer is pushing air with it to 25-26 ft deep. These depths greater than 18ft cause the motor bearings and mechanics to be over stressed and thus they wear out faster than normal. Your air guage should not read higher than 10psi. The lower the psi is than 10psi, the longer the machinery of a rotary vane will last. If you burn up your rotary vane, buy a twin head rocking piston compressor. It will do the best job at the best price, & last the longest for your depth situation. Check w/ Stoney Creek Equipt(Grant MI) for this unit when it is needed.

7. You have gotten plenty of advice above about HBG so I will not add any more about them other make sure you search and read several of the great discussions about them here. HBG have their place in special applications, but be aware of all their negatives before stocking them.

8. Since you are in MI, SMB are definately a viable option for one of your ponds. But I think you should decide which you prefer, SMB or LMB. Then stock appropriately based on your choice. SMB and LMB do not mix well together in the same small pond IF you expect reproduction from both species of bass- use one or the other but not both, UNLESS you keep then separate in the two ponds then both usually reproduce successfully recruit young. .

9. Norm's stocking suggestions will require a little fatter wallet and from your initial post I am not sure the $$$$ are available every several yrs for restocking larger sized fish. If $$$$ are no problem, then his stocking plans work good.

10. Absorb all all the stuff, reread, and sort all the ideas we have thrown at you and then if you have some questions come back and we will try to help and not confuse you too much more. The ponds are yours to manage, and YOU need to decide on what goals you want and then manage toward those goals. We cannot decide the goals for you, we can just present viable possibilities and then hash them out with you as advisors. We all go at this fish stuff a little differently, but we all have to obey Mother Natures Rules or else - trouble happens!!

11. Copy and save all these related posts to your initial question, it will help you sort out and organize all this information and be good reference as you progress in pond management.

This sounds good. You could pretty much feed 9-10 months a year, I think, to one species or the other. It would help maximize the use of this small water. The small pond could be stocked with FH (possibly used as supplemental forage for the bigger pond at first) until the RT went in or you had BG big enough to reliably sex the males.

Theo :

I was not sure I knew where you were headed with the HBG part of the second pond. Can we copy your question to a new thread and go from there. If we put it here we will detract from Chuck's thread and we may have a hard time finding it again. I think there may some people who would like to join in a discussion on HBG and how to transition from them. I do think your plan will work and is not at all crazy. In fact you are describing one way (other than killing the pond} to shift from HBG to other lepomis.

Thanks to all for your comments. I will be printing and digesting today as suggested!!

Bill - Ponds are just north of Ann Arbor at my parents' place. The Pond Guy and Stoney Creek were the one's I referenced originally. Spring Valley is probably the closest. I have no problem traveling to pick up stock. How far is a reasonable/safe distance for me to travel and make it home with live fish??

I'll be back later.....Thanks again

Chuck

ewest:

Off-topic portion transferred to Theo\'s Crazy HBG Stocking Schemes

We now return to Chuck's regularly scheduled thread...

Chuck,

Bill Cody was right on the money about the trout. It's like this: A typical pond no matter how deep it is, is not made for trout unless you have a cold climate or you are doing something to bring the water temps down. Optimum temps are 55 to 65 F., and in those temps they need at least 5 ppms. Once your water gets to 70 to the low 70's they will become stressed and death will not be far off.

I run aerated well water into my small deep ponds to keep the water cool enough. Deep cold water is only part of the equation. It has to have enough oxygen too. Most ponds that stratify have low D.O. in the deeper water (at least to low for trout). If you use a diffuser(s) you make the water temp essentially the same from top to bottom and in summer it would probaby go at least into the 70's. That's too warm for trout. Catch 22.

I hate to sound cynical but I don't see the point in the D.O. meter unless you want to keep a log or something. If D.O. gets low there's nothing you can really do about it, and it typically means you did something terribly wrong anyway. So the D.0. meter is going to show you yes I screwed up but, if you prevented any bad water quality in the beginning you shouldn't have to worry about it or need a D.O. meter.

Typically only fish farmers monitor D.O. levels as they are pushing their carrying capacities to the limit. As a recreational ponder you shouldn't be anywhere near that.

CB1 :

How about a few comments on put and take RT and male BG in the small pond understanding that you will be feeding and that the RT will go in in the fall and be out by June.

Chuck,

I am in Fenton, Probably just north of you. I have gotten stuff from both places you quoted, but I believe that the Pond Guy gets his fish from Stoney Creek. I could be wrong but I thought I saw a picture of a Stoney Creek Truck in the Pond Guy advertisement. If you contact Stoney Creek maybe they can tell you when they will have a truck in your area. They do fish days in the spring and fall. That is how I got mine. There is another place that a couple people here at the office have gotten fish from that they really like. I have looked at an old price sheet of his and he does offer regular bluegills among other things. I have talked to him on the phone in the past and he seems knowledgeable but I don't know it from first hand experience. I plan on getting some golden shiners from him this spring. Here is a link to the internet information he has. Imlay City

Ewest,

That was brought up in this thread, I believe by Bruce. Yes, it's a viable option and during the cold months the RBT's are a blast to catch even through the ice, while the other fish may not be so active. You can even get a few inches growth from October to May albiet not in the dead of winter.

Male bluegill could be an option. Maybe Chuck should get the latest copy of the PB mag if he doesn't already have it?

Chuck, you could purchase some bluegills and put them into a floating cage and feed them and once they are easy to sex just put the males into the pond. Peak time will be probably June. (See the article)

Chuck,

Imlay City is okay to get fish from. Don does have yellow perch, smallmouth bass & walleye if you are interested in them. I am not sure if the Imlay fish are pellet trained or not. Sometimes yes, sometimes no; ask before ordering. Imlay often has larger sized bgill to allow you to more quickly separate male bgill from females. Our May-June article talkes about other ways to get larger male bgill.

A place to reliably get fish pellet trained perch and SMB is Laggis Fish Farm Gobles MI near Kalamazoo 269-628-2056 (no web site that I know of). Dan Laggis always has very good quality fish. Always call to place an order and to make sure he has what you want. Note be careful of his hyb bgill sales pitch.

I see that Spring Valley has good quality high protein fish food (Zeigler) at a better price than Pond Guy and Spring Valley is close to you.

Generally most fish farms supply plastic bags, water and oxygen for transpsorting fish home. You just need several 5 gal buckets or larger cardbord boxes the put each fish bag into. Fish during April and May can travel 4 to 5 hrs with no problem in the trunk or shade. Easily longer if weather is cool and cloudy. If you tell them how far you are traveling, sometimes they will put fewer fish in each bag so they travel better with less stress. Always know what you want before going to a hatchery and don't allow them to sell you extra fish. Always think it over and discuss it with good second opinions before modifying your stocking plan.

Sometimes it is good to buy at least some fish food 5-20 lbs at the hatchery so the fish are used to eating what food they have been raised on.