Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Crappie Pond

Diversified forage base should be the key. Shiners, minnows, shad, all will be needed. Crappie eat a lot to gain weight. All these forage have different spawning habits, and WILL find a place to spawn. A some larger LMB will help, possibly 1 sex. Maybe a couple flatheads. Crappie will find the shad in a small pond before going hungry.

Debra,

Every pond I've ever seen, newly built and left alone for no more than 1 month, will stock itself with Gambusia. That includes our farm ponds that are killed with hydrated lime then filled with filtered water. I see no need to stock Gambusia...none whatsoever.

Black crappie with a stripe down their back are not hybrids...they are a strain of black crappie that have been selectively spawned. I'm not saying that your crappie are not hybrids (whitexblack cross), but the only other farm that is raising hybrid crappie that I know of is experiencing low fry survival rates. Do you have any thoughts?

I was up at Inslee's Fish Farm a few years ago and watched some feed-trained crappie go after pellets in a vat. I feel that the production of feed-trained crappie maybe more feasible than the production of triploids or hybrids.

Making the triploid would still not be 100%, and individual ploidy testing is not an option as it is in grass carp production.

Making the hybrid may not be predictable, specifically fry survival rates.

Feed-training crappie then stocking them out with other feed-trained predators such as HSB and BLGL seems a viable approach.

Todd,

I disagree...agree that Gambusia occur naturally here in East Texas, but disagree that they should not ever be stocked. My GG's were stocked in a newly renovated pond. It would take months, if ever, to have a Gambusia population that I started with by stocking them. Clearly, without doubt, the GG's devour Gambusia. Without stocking them in a barren pond in winter, the GG's would not have that forage. As I stated on another thread, someone knew what they were doing when they set up their GG program to include Gambusia. At first, I didn't think so, now I'm a believer...and it has absolutely nothing to do with mosquito control either.

Seems like you could have stocked fathead minnows as forage as opposed to misquito fish, and that if you had a feeding program in place for the GGs you don't need the gambusia.

Maybe I need to start selling our Gambusia and think of some snazzy names to give our fish just to promote them.

Todd,

I did stock fatheads...that I bought from you earlier when I purchased HSB. It's the Gambusia that the GG's are feeding on...and without them there might be no feeding. I can see it clearly on the surface. There just is no doubt that it is happening. I have an artificial feeder, but the cold temps preclude/limit the feeding...but the feeding on the Gambusia even during the coldest temps was clearly evident and active and unabated.

I don't understand what that has to do with promoting fish. Most of us try very hard to insure adequate forage available to our predators at the time of stocking so the predators will grow. The Gambusia to a GG seem to be like a fathead is to a HSB/LMB. What is wrong with providing forage that otherwise would not be there to promote growth in a predator? I must be missing something.

I can see how GGs feeding on gambusia provide evidence that the fish are feeding and give a warm fuzzy feeling, whereas fatheads don't spend time on surface so you don't see them being consumed. Other than that I see no benefit to stocking them when you can buy fatheads. I'm curious how many actual lbs 1000 mosquito fish consists of...probably about 3 lbs...and what you paid for 1000 of these little boogers vs. what you'd pay for fatheads. I realize you stocked fatheads and appreciate you buying some from us, and I'm not judging you for stocking gambusia...just think it is unnecessary.

On the other subject of promoting fish....names like Georgia Giant, High-Tech Spec, Tiger and Gorilla Bass are examples

We need new names for our fish....like the Texas Twister, Over-A-Ton Bass, Bad-#%*-Bluegill...etc

Well, we will see from the experiment whether the GG's are growing or not....even in winter. I'm not smart enough to know.

But I can certainly give you a reason for stocking Gambusia over fatheads (or rather in addition to)...for small predators. The Gambusia will be there forever, the fatheads disappear in a short time. I have ponds with established Gambusia populations that are over 75 years old. I have not a single pond that has a fathead population that has survived any length of time. Gambusia are small, yes, and light, yes, but thousands of small things add up to bigger things. How's that for tech talk?

As far as naming goes, names mean absolutely nothing to me. It is the product content that I buy and it is performance that I measure.

p.s. over-a-ton-bass that's kind of catchy, so to speak.

OK, we've both made our points. I'm satisfied with your argument and glad to have an opportunity to express mine.

Keep it up ML, you can hang with anyone on this forum

Mr. Overton, I saw some very kind compliments and nicknames given to the pics of your fantastic looking large HSB stockers.

Could the gambusia be a better long term forage option due to their being slightly more mobile, so as to perpetuate themselves longer? I think golden shiners are much more versatile than either, and they help in keeping predator populations in check by invading the nests.

Todd,

Thanks....and especially thanks for a good discussion of both views. That lets people make up their own minds and lets us remain friends and business associates. Thanks again.

BM,

I'm not sure I would call Gambusia mobile. They are an easy target out away from shore. I'm guessing the reason they survive is they will try to hide in a 1/2 inch of water, under a leaf, if necessary to escape. A few always seem to escape and reproduce thousands more which are eaten. Kind of a neat fish, I think. Someone wrote once that they were egg stealers also, I believe. Maybe Bill Cody?

Bergermeister,

I think Gambusia will "happen" in most ponds. Not sure where I would rate them along with other small forage, but I don't think they are more mobile necessarily. They just cling to the water surface and to very shallow water, enabling them to jump and hide to avoid predation. Plus they are live-bearers and so have a special niche and means of distribution most other fish do not. The gambusia, in my opinion, has to be the most widely naturally distributed fish in the nation (which is why I don't think they have to be stocked). Our bluegill growout pond...stocked with the equivalent of 20,000 per acre, is still loaded with gambusia, even with good numbers of 5"-7" bluegill.

And a thanks right back at ML! Right on!

Ya'll are right. Bad choice of words, 'mobile'. Maybe just that they dont swim right into a fishes mouth as fatheads do make them populate more. My shiners are the best, but maybe a little too mobile. May have to hope for some gambusia(or stock a few) if ever get any rain.

What are the best grasses to plant for grass(glass) shrimp recruitment? I planted rye in Nov. What other grass would be good?

Meadowlark have you ever considered a tilapia only pond?

No...had one once and ended up with a gazillion dead Tilapia which made the East Texas coons and a couple of American Bald Eagles very happy.

Oh and also every one of the gazillion dead Tilapia were about 5 inches, no growth like you see when they are kept under control in a predator pond.

Two thoughts on Gambusia:

1) If they are comfortable in 1/2 inch of water under a leaf, perhaps that's one reason they are so ubiquitous. Any time a pond has runoff in or out, Gambusia could be the first fish to swim in through temporary shallow water access. If Bullheads can live in wet grass, maybe Gambusia can swim through it.

2) Disregarding any particular source, Gambusia are more expensive than FH here up North.

ML has already been successful at convincing me to try Gambusia as an additional forage species at some point in the future when my pond is weedier and has more cover for them.

Theo,

They can hide under a leaf, but may not know what to do under ice...brrrr.

Gambusia are more expensive in the beginning, but I feel that the benefits these little fish provide far outweigh the initial investment. I have not done a fish IQ test in quite some time , but I sincerely believe they are smarter than the fathead or average minnow. Most other minnows simply amble around the pond "with their heads in the clouds" oblivious to the predator. Gambusia are quick, elusive, and capable of hiding out in very shallow water. Add in the fact that they give live birth (every 28-30 days during spring and summer months) and I would guess that your initial cost of stocking them would come close to the cost of restocking fatheads every few months. Plus there is the added "mosquito control" benefit. I know bluegill and some other fish have been shown as predators for mosquito larvae, but as a mother (in this day and age of Nile Virus and such) any addition to mosquito control is a plus.
On that note I don't think ML may have stocked enough with his GG. From the sound of it the GG's are feeding heavy on the Gamb's. Overton do you sell the Gambusia? I noticed in a prior post you mentioned something about having 20K Gambusia in one of your ponds. If you don't sell them do you think you could "loan" ML a few thousand?

While I believe that the Gambusia, both strains, are indigenous to most states, I do not agree with the fact that they "pop up" in all ponds. Especially when you take into account a new pond. Most pond owners are too excited about their new project to simply sit back and wait a year to see if any minnows show up on their own.

I also read a post above about the concern shown before in reference to these minnows eating fish eggs. I did read some article in regards to the suspicion by the natives of Gambusia eating out fry eyes somewhere in the Amazon region. But it was non fact based, only supposition. To date I have found no conclusive evidence of the Gambusia doing any harm in a pond, only good.

So in summary I believe that a high stock of Gambusia in the beginning (with slight coverage or a shallow slope for breeding purposes) is a good investment to make in a pond setting. The pros both short and long term far outweigh the cons.

What are the best grasses to plant for grass(glass) shrimp recruitment? I planted rye in Nov. What other grass would be good

Part of a previous post. Slightly off topic, but pertaining to forage.

ML, what do you have? ewest or others in Miss., do you have shrimp?

BM,

Yes, the number of grass shrimp I have is directly proportional to the amount of pondweed.....more pondweed, more shrimp, no pondweed, no shrimp and very few surviving Gambusia. I don't think shore line grasses, e.g. rye, are much if any of a factor. Water grasses are really needed for the shrimp.

It's kind of a conundrum (sp?)...meaning I love the grass shrimp, but hate the pondweed for fishing.

This is one reason I am such a proponent of very limited grass carp stocking. You probably have seen several instances where I strongly disagreed with the pros on the number of grass carp to stock. My view is that some weeds are preferred because of the benefits, e.g. grass shrimp and Gambusia and etc. Stock the grass carp only to the level required to maintain control of weeds, not eliminate weeds...thats my 2 cents.

If you want grass shrimp and lots of other good benefits from weeds, watch your grass carp stocking rates very closely. A weedless pond is not a productive pond, IMHO.

I just found this link for you shrimp boys (I found it interesting, especially since it is in your area).

http://www.countryworldnews.com/Editorial/SCTX/2005/sc0324shrimp.htm

Deb & ML; Deb, that is a great link, and freshwater prawns are great eating and only cost 4-5 dollars per lb in groceries, headless, 25-30 count. No vein and the shells pop open when boiled for 2 or 3 minutes. Took my 86 yr old mother some for Christmas. She loves them and cant go out to eat.
ML and myself were speaking of small forage shrimp. He says that he has many if he maintains some shallow water weeds and that they just crop up just like Overton says about gambusia. Must be an Aest Texas thang.

ML, I planted rye in the basin since there is also a drougnt in SW Miss and water is very low. It will be covered with water this spring. I have never had much weed problem, but since liming, that may change, but had to. Is pondweed emergent, rooted around edges or what? I will look it up. Didnt you also say that shrimp are found in ditches in your area?

burgerm- the planted rye will only supply forage food for the grass shrimp for a short time; weeks to a month. As ML says g.shrimp need some form of weed cover and forage (decaying organic matter/weeds) year round.
Maybe ML will post the names of the pond weeds that are in his pond.

Grass shrimp do best in ponds where there is fine leafed pond weeds; types like sago pondweed, milfoils, narrow leaf pond weed, elodea, Najas (slender naiads, bushy pondweed).

You could probably collect some for stocking in your local weedy ditches, marshes or ponds.

Gambusia are predatory on anything living that is small enough to fit into their mouth. I think they eat more newly hatched fish fry than fish eggs. Fish fry quickly grow beyond edible size for Gambusia, but for a short period Gambusia eat lots of littoral fry. The most susceptable fry are non- sunfish/bass fry. Sunfish/bass fry have parental guarding and once they leave the nest, they are probably too large for Gambusia to injest. Most vulnerable fry would be minnow fry and other fish that are not nest builders.

Deb, put some newly hatched fathead fry in an aquarium with adult Gambusia and you can verify my comments.