Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Documentary of a Texas Georgia Giant

ML: I could see it fine last night at my sister's, and this morning it shows up OK here at home. Maybe there was a server all loaded down somewhere yesterday; I know Deb couldn't see it either (for a while).

Nice pic, nice 6 incher. Please continue the documentation as these fellows grow.

Merry Christmas,
Theo.

I agree with Theo on the possible server error. I tried to post pics also yesterday, but when they did not show I had to revert to posting links. In fact I posted here for you to email the pics to me, but when I saw I had doubled up on Theo's offer I deleted that post.

I too can see it perfect now. Thanks for taking the time to document. Yesterday was exactly three weeks from the Dec. 3rd stocking, and you are already showing growth. Good job! Just out of curiosity how long did it take for them to hit, and what were you using as bait? Are you supplementing feeding with the sinking pellets, and if so then how often? I am trying to use Theo's excel spreadsheet (that he so graciously sent me) to help you document this.

Merry Christmas,
Deb

ML :

I could not see him for about an hour then all the sudden he was there.

Which one was he :

"And there was Robinson, Greg, Sunil, and EWEST
Theo, George, Burger, Dave and all 192 of the rest "

I assume he went back in the pond . Have the grandkids seen the fish yet?

EWEST & Deb,

Let's assume this was one of the "all 192 of the rest".

The fish hit a little imitation Gambusia fly that I created some time back (with George's input)after seeing BG feeding on Gambusia. I'm not in George's class as a tier, not even close, but can manage to fool most fish (some of the time).

The TGG's were surprisingly active. As I mentioned, they were the only fish in any of the ponds apparently feeding. I could see them chasing Gambusia, hence the use of that fly.

Showed my grandson the picture today and his eyes bugged out...he's ready to go fishing!

I've still been surface feeding in small amounts....a 45% protein feed. Will switch over to combo small feedings of sinking and surface feeding(mixed) this week. Feeding only small amounts. The fish are clearly getting plenty to eat from the Gambusia.

More data to come.

Okay, hopefully George won't read this thread cause I am not anywhere in his class of tier.

Here is a picture of the Gambusia fly tied on #10 hook. Works very well for catching small LMB for removal and apparently also on TGG.

ML :

Nice fly. It looks a lot like any number of small minnows including a fathead. Ever hooked one of the HSB on that ( ?) btw what is it called ? How about "Meadowlark's Magic Minnow " or triple M for short.

Yes, it is patterned after a famous minnow imitation fly called a "Clouser". I have taken HSB on a larger version...for small LMB and big BG this downsized version really works well.

Good job ML…..!
I need to mention,and sure that ML agrees, a fish caught on a fly that you have tied yourself – is double the fun….!

George and ML :

I bet one of the ultimate pond experiences is to catch a healthy adult fish you raised on a fly you tied . -- triple the fun !!

This picture of a georgia giant posted by ML looks nothing like the pic on Ken's website. The fish looks more like the basic green sunfish/bluegill cross, possibly back-crossed to a parental bluegill. I don't see any redear in ML's pic, but do see redear characteristics in the pic on Ken's website.

Everyone knows what a traditional hybrid bluegill is, and a tigre bass, and a grass carp, and the procedures used to produce these fish are disclosed. It is in the best interest of a hatchery to disclose this type of information unless there is something to hide in order to increase sales. I would want to know before I purchased the fish....WHAT ARE THEY? What will they revert to if/when they spawn.

With this in mind...I thank ML for being the guinnea pig. I'll be waiting for a picture of his fish when they if/when they are 1#+.....

Deb will respond I'm sure. I agree with Overton. That does not look like the GG I had for 2 years in my pond and just like typical cross I see. ML, did they all look similiar to this one? How many caught so far?

To my unprofessional eye ML's posted TGG looks maybe 1/3 BG, 1/3 GSF, and 1/3 RES (the side pattern looks more RES to me). I suspect more than 2 species in the GG mix also.

There are two paths to take when you come up with a better idea - patent it and have competition (hopefully licensed), or keep it a secret and do it alone. Ken has clearly chosen the second path.

I understand Todd's point, but I must admit to enjoying the mystery and trying to figure it out. It's like in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," when they have the RR-hired team of professional lawmen and trackers running them down - "WHO ARE THOSE GUYS?"

Theo I agree there is more in there than just GSF and BG but the one I had ( I wish I had pics) had an opercular ear much like a redear and much more orange overall. Is this male vs. female diff? Like I asked Ml wondering if they all look this way.

If Theo were MacGyver he could use duct tape and a swiss army knife to make a "DNA testing machine".

I caught about half a dozen of them and they were notably different in colorations/markings. A couple of them had a lot of orange, even golden hue, a couple were darker in color like some real dark BG I've seen and two others were kind of non-descript, one of which I posted in the picture.

If you want, I'll post some more pictures. It seems we are in for a warming spell and fish should be feeding for the next several days.

I'm not accomplished with a camera, but maybe a closer view would be better? Show more markings? Specifically get the opercular flap?

Let me know if you want to see some of the other colors/markings now but as time goes forward I'll try to get the more colorful ones to pose in the picture....while waiting for Todd's one pounder to show up.

Yes closer view would be great. Glad to hear you are catching other colors, thanks

I believe those of you who think the GG's are a tri-hybrid should do some research into what it takes to make such a fish. I haven't been able to find squat, and would suspect very low fry survival rates. I would very much appreciate any links to relative information, even though I don't intend to grow Georgia Giants of my own....just curious and have some time on my hands to get into trouble.

One of the many fascinating and mysterious features of any hybrid is the fact that no two are identical. In fact, if this were the case, they would indeed be considered clones. The GG are without a doubt a mixed pool of several bream. We have an inclosed hatchery on site (with more than 300 troughs) that is dedicated strictly for the rearing (babysitting) of the fry. In fact, we won’t even sell a GG under 1-2". Much time, effort, and money are put into this “babysitting.” Water temps, water quality, and water flow are but a few of the many rules that come into play with these babies.
As far as the theory on reverting or back breeding, Bob Lusk posted the perfect explanation just a few months back.
And I quote:
“Here are a few facts for everyone to understand.
When you cross species, a hybrid is created. In most scenarios, hybrids can't reproduce. (donkey x horse = mule)
In the case of hybrid sunfish, some of them can reproduce (not all). Their sex ratios are not normal...approximately 95% are males. That also has an impact on reproduction.
Know this...they cannot reproduce to what they are, it's genetically impossible. They also cannot reproduce to what they were. That's impossible, too. Each offspring carries the genes for both parents, which is a mixed pool. Some genetic traits are dominant, others aren't. When fish have a mixed pool, they reproduce and only give a mixed pool, they can't be anything 'pure', ever. They can't become their parents. It's akin to unbaking a cake. That cake will never be the ingredients. It is now a cake.
Hybrid vigor degrades after the first generation. When hybrids cross, dominant traits change. Hybrids cannot reproduce and become what they were. They become a second generation cross with a mixed bag of genes from the parents. Where the second generation crosses, things become confusing, genetically speaking. Those generations are called 'Fx'. Take a bag of red and green confetti, and mix it with a bag of blue and yellow confetti. The 'hybrid' bag is a pretty, even mix of all colors. Take the hybrid bag and mix it with another bag of totally different colors. What do you get? A completely mixed bag of different colors, none of which is the original. It has traits of the original, but isn't. With hybrid sunfish some of those colors are dominant, some of the behaviors are dominant.
Fisheries biologists who recommend hybrid sunfish also recommend stocking no other sunfish with them. That's because the hybrids which do reproduce tend to go at it with other species, such as bluegill, etc.
Typical hybrid sunfish sold in the U.S. are crosses between male bluegill and female green sunfish.
Deb tells us that the Georgia Giant is a proprietary blend of genes. She has no idea what it is. Two people know that blend, and they aren't talking. They have a trademark, a product and loyal base of followers. They have a system they like.
Other companies have programs and systems that they like.
It's pretty funny, traveling the country and meeting different biologists and pond management people. The business is a hybrid. We live in different regions, doing what we do. And, most of us think we invented the business. I'll never forget about ten years ago, when I found out about a pond management guy in South Carolina. I called him. We both were a bit shocked. He pretty much did what I did, and as we compared notes, we were similar. Throw some testosterone into the mix, and we could have been like two roosters, taking credit for all the chicks. Pond management, as a business, is a cottage industry. But, the biological principles are the same.
We all operate under these scientific principles, with different opinions. That fact makes pond management an art.
As consumers, you get to pick.
Much of this thread is based on hearsay, with a limited understanding exactly how genetics work, bolstered by other hearsay as evidence.
Deb has explained it well.
If someone has green sunfish, they didn't come from the hybrids. It can't happen. Hybrids are hybrids, cake is cake”. Bob Lusk October 7th, 2005 9:31 A.M.

As for revealing the secret recipe for the GG, I certainly understand where you are coming from. In fact I myself do not have this recipe. But I respect what Ken has done much in the same way I respect what KFC has done with their original recipe and with what Red Lobster has done with their biscuits (bad analogies I know, but we have all eaten at these places so I am sure we can relate). Many have tried to duplicate these above-mentioned products but have fallen short. Ask yourself what would happen if those recipes “got out” into the general public. The fact is that competition might actually push them out of business (or at minimum cut their profit margin). As a sole proprietorship Ken can’t afford (literally) for that to happen.
So you ask “Isn’t it only fair for a customer to know what an Fx will be?” Herein lies the reason behind a large predator stocking base. A GG pond is not intended to grow out WR predators, but instead it is designed to grow a large original stock (maybe a few offspring) with the majority of offspring becoming forage for the predator.
In ML’s case he stocked HSB on a 1 to 5 ratio with the GG. If he notices an increase in GG offspring, he can add more predators if he so chooses. It is all about goals.

So to make a long post short (yeah right for me to actually do that ) ML will see a wide variety of feature characteristics displayed with his F-1 GG stock. Just as we see a wide variety of feature characteristics displayed on the Americans we pass daily on the street.

Deb that's a long winded way of saying, "We're not about to tell trade secrets".

Dave have you ever known me not to be long winded? Actually I had to sign papers upon employment with the company that swore me to keep it all "under wraps". Even with that being said, I honestly do not know the mix.

ML - I also would like to see more photos of the variability of the GG's that you catch. You do not need to post more photos soon. I am patient and can wait to see them next year as they grow toward the 1 lb mark.

Deb - Whenever the time comes for pond draining and collection of GG's at the hatchery, please make an effort to take some close-up photos of some of the variety of color patterns that are enhibited by these interesting fish.

I understand the situation from a business point of view...very well. We all want to have our niche in business, it keeps us protected.

Why do I have to spend so much time on the telephone telling lake-owners what a Tiger bass actually is, and why that fish is no different from our F1. So I give up on that after some time and just start calling my bass "Tigre Bass" and catch that wave and run with it.

Personally, if I were about to stock my pond with Georgia Giants I'd want to know what they were (what am I buying). By learning very hard (expensive) fish farming lessons myself, I know that if I screw up a pond decision in the beginning, I'll pay for that 10-fold down the line.

The pond boss forum just wants more information...(we like it), documented experimentation, recent stuff. We want pictures, testimonies, etc. We want to learn something. I hope ML has good news for us!

Thanks Debra. I got that off my mind. You are an asset to pond boss forum.

Bob Lusk's comments quoted above got me thinking about the combinations and probabilities in multiple-species hybrids. Counting chromosomes didn't get me back to sleep this morning so I decided to post it.

Let's set up a fictional fish Genus - the Spielekarten group. There are four species, each with 13 pairs of chromosomes, that can interbreed: S. diamante (diamonds), S. assaultus (clubs), S. excavator (spades), and S. cardiac (hearts).

Make two completely disimilar F1 hybrids - clubsXspades and heartsXdiamonds (black F1 and red F1). These two crosses each have 13 chromosomes from both parent species, that is, chromosomes 1 (Ace) through 13 (King) of two separate full suits. Their genetic content is pretty predictable (50% from each parent species) and I would expect the appearance of large numbers of black hybrids to be similar; the same for red hybrids.

Now let's cross the red F1 with the black F1. The red parent's (let's make it the female) chromosome contribution will vary from all hearts to all diamonds. The number of possible combinations of red chromosomes in the red egg is a 13 digit binary number - there are 2 to the 13th (which is 8192) different possible red chromosome combos. Similarly, the black F1 male can contribute 8192 different possible chromosome combinations in his milt, from all spades to all clubs. This means there are 8192 times 8192 (which is 67,108,864) different possible chromosome combinations for the redXblack [(heartsXdiamonds)X(spadesXclubs)] hybrid (I'm not sure "F2" is exactly the correct term but I am going to use it to represent this four-species second generation hybrid).

That's a really large number of variations. And I'd expect to see some intereresting differences in the F2s, because the genetics controlling each trait (stripes, spots, fin size & shape, mouth size, aggressiveness, coloration, etc.) can be either spadesXhearts, spadesXdiamonds, clubsXhearts, or clubsXdiamonds. And with > 67 million different combos, that's gotta be some amazing differences just in the visible traits.

IF GGs are a hybrid of four Lepomis species (a big IF - multiple species seems assured but how many? I don't want Deb to violate her NDA because then she'd have to kill us ) each with 24 chromosomes (IIRC), then each F1 parent can contribute 2 to the 24th or 16,777,216 different chromosomes combos to their eggs/sperm, for a total of 281,474,976,710,656 (that's 281 trillion and some change) different possible combinations of chromosomes and hence traits in my supposed "4-species" GG.

Some of these combinations may well be fatal before hatching or at the fry or small fingerling stage, but if 99.99% of the F2 fertilized eggs and offspring died, that still leaves over 28 billion different combinations of traits for the GG to exhibit. And given the number of offspring that can be produced in a sunfish pond, I'd expect to observe quite a number of them.

So ML, you'd better take a lot of pictures.

Guys as Kens oldest customer on the board(stocked GG five years ago) I can honestly say that if I was starting over and stocking a new pond Georgia Giants would be the first fish in. If you are looking for fast growth and fun fishing they are your fish. Do they have disadvantages, yes as Kens catalog points out.
Georgia Giants are not for all ponds but are a great fish in the right situation.
We would all like to know the mix(I asked Ken) but he ain't telling nor would you if you came up with this fish!

Theo, what a great post! Tack that baby on the front door of the Pond Boss Hall of Fame.