Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Documentary of a Texas Georgia Giant

Meadowlark posted this morning:

�I have spent a lifetime in scientific and engineering endeavors as a "rocket scientist" and have absolutely no desire to become a data dog on my passion which is ponds. Ponds are about fun for me. I've done my life work, now I want some fun.

Having said that, if there are people on here that want some honest data, whatever it turns out to be, then I will agree to make some data recordings for them. I know Burger is interested, perhaps you are, and if others so desire I will record some data...better yet, I'll open the pond up to any Forum member who wants to run his/her own tests. I like that approach better because then I can fish and enjoy rather than "work".

Okay, for the data lovers...

1) total hardness: 136
2) total alkalinity: 136
3) ph 7.5
4) water clarity/temp: muddy 62 degrees
5) stocking date: Dec. 3 '05
6) 200 GG's 4 to 5 inches in 1/4 acre pond
7) 40 HSB 3 to 4 inches
8) ten pounds of fathead minnows
9) 1001 Gambusia
10) and a partridige in a Catalpa tree.

My independent water tests (probably less accurate drop count tests) showed about 10% higher total alkalinity. I suggest we use Deb's tests however as the baseline especially for comparison to Gator's results which will come in spring.

You want data, pictures...that's what I'll provide as long as the personal crap stays away.

Burger, seriously, you are most welcome to come fish my ponds in June...or any time. Just be careful not to show me up as a poor fisher however.

Bill Cody, Dr. Dave or any other fish experts, is there any other starting data we should record? This is starting to feel like fun again. Thanks.�


To this above I added:

ML's stock on Saturday December 3rd, 2005:

- 200 4-5" GG weighing 48lbs per thousand
- 40 3-4" HSB weighing 26lbs per thousand
- 1001 1-2" gambusia minnows weighing 3lbs per thousand
- 2 catalpa trees (weight not taken, but limbs clipped back)
- 2 bags 45% protein sinking fish feed weighing 50lbs per bag.

Tomorrow will be exactly two weeks from stock date, so maybe we can start the grueling documentation from there. Catch a fish, weigh a fish, measure a fish, and good Lord please photograph a fish.


Now let�s keep this thread professional boys. Only facts, pictures, and suggestions allowed, otherwise the authorities WILL be alerted (we have that as a new feature)!

Deb

Thanks for moving the post up to the top, Deb. I hadn't spotted Meadow's question.

Meadow -- I don't have any other grand ideas for you. Good length and weight measurements over time should tell a lot, at least for your particular set of circumstances.

By the way, they wouldn't grow much around here at the moment. :-) We're up to 4-5 inches of ice already.

I agree with Dave. Fish will not grow much over winter. I don't think you would need to do any fish measurements until spring and then again in autumn.

If you think about it in spring of 2006 make a note of when the surface water temp of the GG pond gets to 55 or 60F. At that point you might want record the length of a few GG. Decent growth should start about that time.

Then try and note when the water temp again falls to 55 or 60F in the fall and measure a few more GG. This will allow us to calculate how many growing days there were for increase in body length.

Dave and Bill, I really am trying to understand this. Are you suggesting that the fish will not eat the sinking food or that they will eat it but not grow? There will be no ice in East Tx., but will have cold temps. and the fish will be near the bottom. Fish do eat in winter if it is presented to them in the area which they inhabit dont they? I am considering going to sinking food and need some advice.
tnx

burgerm - once the water temps drop below 55 and especially 50F, warmwater fish growth is very slow, if it even occurs. ML can verify this by measuring his GGs next spring. And at 39-40F growth, for all practical purposes essentially stops. However fish will definately feed in these cold water temps. Amount of feeding will be temperature dependant. The intake of food will be substantially less than during periods of warmer water. Keep in mind that fish are cold blooded animals and all the basic rules of poikilotherm metabolism apply to them. The intake of food at these lower temps is basically used to maintain body condition and or fat reserves.

Heavy feeding of warm water fish at water temperatures below 45F have been known to cause fish deaths in northern waters due to the fish having difficulty of digesting lots of dry, artificial feed. One fish farmer told me the deaths were due to the food developing bacterial spoilage in the stomach before it could be digested in the cold temperatures. I feed my fish (moist food) including some of those in a cage very lightly in cold water and I have never observed problems of feeding and cold-water deaths. I do not know if moist or dry food has any affect regarding fish feeding and mortalities in cold water.

Bruce Condello (posted in Cecil Envy) is currently feeding yellow perch fairly high amounts of dry food in cold water of around 52F-55F. He has not observed any mortality so far. Bruce thinks the yellow perch are even showing signs of growth. Keep in mind that yellow perch are classed as cool water fish and not warm water fish. Yellow perch undergo a lot of egg development & sexual maturation during winter. They feed actively during winter at 39-40F. They spawn soon after ice out at water temps of 48-54F.

Thanks, Bill.

We are almost on a horizontal line with you Burger. When water temps are over 60 degrees we feed a 38% protein 22% fish meal pellet at least once a day. When the water temps drop below 60 degrees we opt for a 45% protein sinking pellet fed once every 2-3 days. We don't have substantial growth during the "winter" months, but the fish do feed with a slight increase in body mass. I know ML plans to feed this way during these next few months, so if it isn't too much to ask of him he might get a few measurements to see what is working. I too would like Bill and Dave's imput on this.

Glad to provide some back up for Bill and Daves points ( but they don't need any back up) .Interesting that the YP were feeding in winter on the BG . I wonder if Bruce is up on this before the YP go in one of his ponds with BG.

-------------------------------------------------

Winter Feeding Habits of Bluegills, Lepomis Macrochirus Rafinesque, and Yellow Perch, Perca Flavescens (Mitchill), in Cedar Lake, Washtenaw County, Michigan
James W. Moffett

U. S. Department of the Interior, Fish and Wildlife Service, Stanford University, California

Burton P. Hunt

Michigan Institute for Fisheries Research, Ann Arbor, Michigan

Abstract.�During the winter of 1940-41, 1,128 bluegills and 211 yellow perch were collected from the rather productive Cedar Lake, Washtenaw County, Michigan. Analyses were made of the contents of the stomachs of these fish.

Bluegills consumed very little food during the winter. The average stomach contained 133 organisms of which 124 were plankton. The average volumetric content of these stomachs was 0.036 cubic centimeters. Foods consumed were predominantly aquatic insects (mayfly nymphs) in early winter; changed to plankton (Cladocera) in midwinter; and tended again toward aquatic insects as spring approached. There was some correlation noted between prolonged periods of warm weather and an increased rate of food consumption.

Yellow perch ate much more food than did bluegills during the winter. The average volume per stomach was 0.26 cubic centimeters. Young bluegills constituted the great bulk of the perch diet. They formed over 60 per cent of the total volume throughout the winter. Ostracoda were eaten in great numbers in midwinter.

Winter predation by perch on young bluegills certainly must be an important factor in regulating the bluegill population.

-----------------------------------------------

Here is the southern info below. These just verify that Bill is on the money.

------------------------------------------------

WINTER AND SUMMER GROWTH OF BLUEGILLS IN
FERTILIZED PONDS �
E. V. S�TH AND H. S. SWINGLE
Alabama Agricultural Experiment Station, Auburn, Alabama
ABSTRACT
The use of fertilizers to increase the production of lqsh in ponds has become
widespread in recent years. Since fish are cold-blooded animals, their
metabolic activities are slowed by cold weather and accelerated by hot
weather. Experiments were conducted to study the winter and summer
growth of bluegill bream. In December, small fertilized ponds were stocked
with bluegill fingerlings at the rate of 1,750 per acre, individuals averaging
3.8 grams in weight. Three months later their average weight had increased
to 11.4 grams, a gain of 200 per cent. The water temperature during this
period varied from 3 � C. in January to 15 � C. in March. Another fertilized
pond was stocked in March at the rate of 1,500 fingerlings per acre, individuals
averaging 4.5 grams in weight. Samples of bream taken from this
pond in June averaged 80 grams, a gain of 1,700 per cent. The water temperature
during the latter period ranged from 19 � C. to 24 � C.
Thus, bream do grow during the winter in the South, but the growth is so
slow that winter fertilization of ponds generally is not practical. Ponds
stocked in the fall or winter should be fertilized lightly during this period
to produce sufficient food to support the fish until spring.
INTRODUCTION
Fish are cold-blooded animals, and therefore their body temperature
is about the same as that of the surrounding medium. They grow
very slowly or cease growth entirely during the winter when the water
is sufilcient]y co]d, and the various life processes of the animal are at
a low ebb..... Hathaway
(]927) found that bluegills (Lepomis macrochirus) and largemouth
black bass (Micropterus salmoides)c onsumeda bout one-third as much
food at 10 � C. (50 � F.) as at 20 � C. (68 � F.). Markus (]932) studied
the feeding habits, rate of .digestion and growth of largemouth black
bass at different temperatures during a 3-month period. He found
that the bass fed voluntarily at temperatures of ]6 � C. (60.8 � F.) and
above but not at ]0 � C. and 4 � C. (50 � and 39.2 � F., respectively).
Even when force-fed, the bass did not increase in length at the lower
temperatures and most of them lost weight. They gained in weight
and length at temperatures of ]2 � to 20 � C. (53.6 � to 68 � F.).
The scales of crappie (Pomoxis nigro-maculatus and P. annular�is),
black bass, and bluegill bream collected in Alabama show well-defined
annuli, indicating that growth is retarded during the relatively mild
winters of this region.

Ewest -- you ALWAYS put your finger on a key!! Winter predation by perch on young bluegills is a very interesting point of research in the north country right now. For the southern folks, remember that the yellow perch is a cousin of the walleye, while your "perch" often is a local name for green sunfish.

Deb -- I just don't have any experience with cool water feeding, and sure can't help any more. Bill and Cecil have done a lot more.

ewest, do you search this stuff out on Westlaw?

ewest's research revealing significant yellow perch predation on bluegill is something of which I wasn't aware.

Sunil :

No not Westlaw. A number of sources I have found over the years. A couple Dr. Dave let me in on. If one is interested a good source to start is AFS (American Fisheries Society ) but it is not free (you can search the abstracts for free , that is why I can post them , but not the studies). FishBase is a great source as is SRAC links below.

SRAC
http://srac.tamu.edu/fulllist.cfm

FishBase
http://www.fishbase.org/search.php?lang=English

But you have to remember a good chef does not give out the full recipe.

Doc Dave, down south, perch is actually a colloquialism given to all sunfish other than bass. I don't think that the average person either knows or cares about the difference.

Of course, once we get our own ponds and start sweating bullets about forage/prey balance it becomes important. That's when the PB addiction sets in.

Thanks, Dave. This addiction stuff sure changes a person, doesn't it? :-)

Dr. Dave or others:

I saw a reference to a fish I have not heard of the "yellow perchpike" and it gave the scientific name and then called it a name I know a little about, walleye. I was wondering where the first name came from or why so different a name when there is also a yellow perch.

Bill and Dr. Dave,

With 39F and spitting precep, I most appreciate that.

I don't know how you guys ice fish in much colder weather...tougher than I am. I'll get out there the first warm(er) day and get some data. Thanks.

Meadowlark,

It's simply a matter of dressing for it and acclimating to it. On really cold days I reside in my shanty. Even on cold days if the sun is bright it gets so toasty in my shanty I have to take my jacket off.

Even in the single digits or below if there is no wind if you dress right you would be amazed how cozy you can be!

Yep, I expect I would be amazed. Seriously, I would have the same problem in cold weather that you would in 100+.

My Grandma always said (wrt dressing for the cold) to remember 90% of your body heat is lost via your head.

So, you can go outside naked IF you wear a really good hat!

I shrink at the thought!

My wife says it's not a hot flash, it's a POWER SURGE.

Theo, regarding Grandmas advice, I've seen your picture and that is too much information.

Sun came out yesterday and the TGG's were feeding...only fish apparently feeding in any ponds. Caught a few to pose for a picture.

This one was about 5.5 inches long and 2.5 inches wide. Water temps 57F. They seem to be growing...about 1 month from stocking.

ML:

I will be happy to post TGG pix if you would like, just E-Mail 'em.

Now that is strange...it shows up clear as a bell on my screen...Theo it is on its way.