Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations name that fish...............

I have a few different cross breeds I am experimenting with and thought I would see if anyone could identify this one. Deb, you are also welcome to try, you might like this.

This fish was stocked in mid may and was 1.5 to 2 inches at stocking. Sorry for not including a ruler. When I have time I will repost with ruler. I can tell you this fish is around 6.25 inches.

AaronhomeIN,

I've got a bunch of them that look just like that....and all I have ever stocked are CNBG and RES. I'm very interested to know the answer to this one....and how I got them in my ponds.

Oops that was supposed to be 5.25 " :rolleyes:

What would a HBG x CNBG look like?

I have some that look like that...HBG (several generations ago).

Gator

Robinson,

No, CNBG do not have any greenie genetics. I assure you what I said is true.

My theory:

Some greenies got mixed up in the original CNBG and RES stocking and somehow (?) crossed one or both of those. I'll try to get a picture, but it is identical to AaronhomeIN's fish, identical.

I first saw them about two years after the intial stocking and have noticed a steady decline ever since in their numbers. Not many of them left now and I rarely catch one, but I swear it is identical to the fish pictured.

My guess is half GS and half Pumpkinseed. And I bet I'm half right!

P.S. Aaron, It's nice to do one of these with a known answer.

P.P.S. When do you reveal the correct answer so we'll know the Grand Prize Winner? I want to get my $2000 check from Dr. Frankenbruce right away.

greenie and chinquipin

My guess is BM and Theo are both right. Something tells me we are in for a suprise but how will we know for sure -- on one hand we have Dr. Frankenbruce on the other Dr. Aaronstein both noted for dabbling with sunfish genes. ewest

ps : because I picked Theo ( GSF x PS ) and BM ( RE x GSF )I am probably 1/3 right.

I want to know if you crossed a male BG/RE with a GS or a female BG/RE with a male GS, from what I undeerstand hybrids can look completely different depending the sex of the parents you use in the cross.

BTW - the picture of the hybrid that Deb posted of the fish in the tank looks almost exactly like the accidental hybrids we had for a while in our pond, our did not have the yellow accents on the fins. I'm pretty sure Deb's picture is a GS X BG cross, about ten years ago I caught our neighbors hired hand using GS for bait while fishing at our pond. A small number of large hybrids showed up shortly after that but have not been seen for for 4-5 years now.

Green Sunfish X bluegill. Green sunfish have that fringe on the opercle so there is no reason to believe it has to have some pumpkinseed or redear in it.

CB1 :

Do standard HBG -- male BG x female GS exhibit a big difference in appearance from female BG x male GS . I know they both have the same % male offspring (97%) but don't know that I have ever seen the later. I made my guess based on body shape , coloration (background and spotting pattern), mouth/head size, fin shape/location , and tail shape but not fringe on op. flap. ewest

That's what I have been told! I am not an expert on that subject though, I was hoping someone else was. I had a hybrid BG that I was sure was a Pumkinseed that would qualify as a new state record in NE. Long story short I took it the NE Game & Parks dept who looked it over really well, they even took it a fisheries specialist at UNL for examination of the gill rakes for confimation of a hybrid. I was told it was a hybrid and the hybrids can and do look different depending on the sex of the cross, I do not remember which one I had but it looked an awful lot like the picture Deb posted of the fish in the tank.

I compared this picture to the green sunfish X bluegill hybrids that I've photographed and could find no significant differences.

Quote from Shorty:

"I had a hybrid BG that I was sure was a Pumkinseed that would qualify as a new state record in NE. Long story short I took it the NE Game & Parks dept who looked it over really well, they even took it a fisheries specialist at UNL for examination of the gill rakes for confimation of a hybrid. I was told it was a hybrid and the hybrids can and do look different depending on the sex of the cross, I do not remember which one I had but it looked an awful lot like the picture Deb posted of the fish in the tank."

Been there done that! I took in a 1 lbs. 6 oz what appeared to be a pumpkinseed for a taxidermy customer. I took it to a local DNR station to verify it. One biologist said it was a hybrid from 20 feet away as he went into the building without taking a closer look. Two other biolgists keyed it out as a pumpkinseed by the gillrakers etc. Unfortunately because one of them said it was a hybrid only a DNA test would verify if it was truly a pumpkinseed or not. Long story short I had a professor back out of doing a DNA test as he wouldn't answer my phone calls or emails after he said he would do a DNA test.

If it is a pumpkinseed it ties the IGFA world record, if it is a pumpkinseed hybrid it is a new record for a pumpkinseed hybrid. I guess we'll never know.

I hope like heck that is not what someone sold you as a GG, because it isn't our fish. I would have to actually have few samples in hand with a microscope, but at first glance I would guess a green or red crossed with ?a longear or redear?. Not certain of the true Blue factor yet. A dozen people will give you a dozen answers when it comes to hybrids because of the whole gene dominance thing, especially when they "just glance" as mentioned above. Pictures can often times be deceiving to the naked eye. This one is a juvenile, which make true traits less easy to mark. Got anymore pics without the trash around his mouth area? Any others similar in size and traits?

Deb

I agree with Cecil and Bruce. Aaron's fish looks exactly like the bgill X GS natural cross (at abt 6" long) that a neighbor has in his pond. As they get older they will develop subtile changes in body shape and coloration. However I cannot tell which of the parent fish was male and female. I will try to get a photo of one of my "local 6" hybrids" this weekend. So a photo comparison can be made. Note that is important to compare fish of similar size.

Bruce and Shorty :

Help me understand your posts.

Shorty did they mean that a hybrid BG when looked at would look different if it was male vs. female ( I know 97% are male) or were they saying male BG x female GSF look different from female BG x male GSF. I know any particular HBG may look different from others because of the genetic line up of traits ( while 99 out of 100 may look the same the 100th may look different).

Bruce are you talking about a backcross of a HBG and a GSF? Do you have a pic. of that? See below for why I ask.

ewest

Reproductive Isolation between a Hybrid Sunfish and Its Parental Species
MARTIN W. BRUNSON

Rice Research Station, Louisiana Agricultural Experiment Station, Louisiana State University Agricultural Center, Post Office Box 1429, Crowley, Louisiana 70527, USA

H. RANDALL ROBINETTE

Department of Wildlife and Fisheries, Mississippi Agricultural and Forestry Experiment Station, Mississippi State University, Mississippi State, Mississippi 39762, USA

Abstract.—Attempts to backcross F1 male bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) x green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus) hybrids with females of each parental species were unsuccessful both in ponds and in the laboratory. In laboratory experiments, fertilization was accomplished but embryos failed to survive longer than 36 h. In ponds, nesting and courting activity were observed but successful reproduction did not occur. Additionally, 1,874 of 1,983 F1 hybrids examined (94.5%) were males.

Is thst a cricket and hook in it's mouth?

Gator?

Come on, Aaron. You gonna fess up, or is this a lesson in how to keep 20 losers in suspense?

Lots of good talk from good people; I'm sticking with PSxGSF. If I'm wrong, I'm gonna be dead wrong.

Not to flip flop, but I too might be leaning towards Theo. I have been surfing the Pumpkinseed and see a possibility. Part of the secret might just be in the flap. Pale in the photo, but we might need a little more info. For example time of death and such (Lord now I sound like I am in forensics). We most certainly need more than one photo. Hey, that's what you all keep saying to me!

Deb

The fish looks quite fresh to me. The very light rose pink at the back gill flap margin comes from the green sunfish. It is a common feature in BG X GS crosses.

Bill,
Would the GS or BG show a darker flap (not the margin)? I do not have much to offer on GS, but from what I have observed, both the GS and the BG have darker pigmentation (and almost oval) on the actual flap itself than other bream do (save for the redear maybe). The light pink on the back could show recent circulation, but the paleness I referred to was on the flap itself. Just a thought! The only true hybrid I have dealt with is the GG, and as I said before the above fish is not a GG.

Deb

I may end up signing my posts as YOUR grad student (like Bruce did with Theo) before long!

Ewest: I'm just talking about a straight F1.

Sorry for the chat and run but I was running late for work. I work afternoons.

The photo was taken after I was trying to catch a GG I stocked earlier. I didn't exspect to catch one of the HBG (BG X GS) X RES. I thought I would share it with you all. I only had about 5 minutes left before I had to get ready for work and the fly rod was handy so I threw a few cast. I will try to get time to catch a GG tomorrow to show photos of.

I am sorry for the poor quality photo of the fish laying on the porch. I was trying to photo and release quickly. This cross is alot more on the plump side than the standard BG X GS I have seen. I thought I would dable with a few different crosses and see what happens in my pond. I plan to dredge in a few years so I figured why not.

With all the cross bred fish out there it is great to see the input when different genetics are brought forth for conversation. I know many have probably already seen this hybrid before but some have not and it may help others identify unusual looking fish they have seen. I cannot guarrantee genetics of this fish but I bought from a reputable farm. The reason I posted this one was that it was the first one I have caught. I used a wet fly slow near bottom for it. Anyways thanks for the input and I hope to have time, between changing diapers on the kids , to catch one of the infamous GGs tomorrow.