Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose where are my golden shiners

Late last summer I stocked 5 pounds of #20, approximately 3.5" long, 250 count, Anderson minnow farm golden shiners in our 1/4 acre cool water pond. There were few morts a time of stocking. For a few days I could observe small schools of them swimming together.
In February when I first tried fishing the pond, I caught and released 1 GSH about 7" long. On my first cast no less, and the only fish I've ever caught in a February from the pond. Then in late May , few a few days, I could observe 2 GSHs moving around together and eating the occasional Endurance pellet. I've seen no shiners since that time.
Elodea is thick in the pond, covering 40% of the area and now rising to the surface. I've raked some channels through the weeds and often see the other fish species using these "highways". I've not seen the rippling water described in other posts as evidence of feeding schools of shiners.
There are fewer than 10 predators in the pond that could eat prey of this size, including several LMB, 1 SMB, 1 GSF. Is it likely that the shiners are out there and reproducing and I just can't see any?
I would like to sample the GSH population to get an idea if I need to restock. What techniques might I use for a small, weedy, relatively shallow (8' max depth) BOW? I've considered anchoring in the open water middle and fishing with a small piece of worm under a bobber. I'd be fighting off the BG and GSF with that plan.

Try a cage/trap or below. Feed in front of the net for a few days then feed and when activity starts pull in the net. You can use a shorter net.

If you do end up restocking, I suggest you opt for the GSH frye that are available in the April-ish time frame each year, from Andersons.

They ship. If you want to do it, you need to get on their list in January so that they know you want some.

The unit count of frye is 250,000.

I've done this for many years in my main 4.5 acre pond, and in our 1/4 acre neighborhood pond; in the 1/4 acre pond, I believe the GSH were under no threat of decimation even considering I had well over 20 3-5lb LMB, 5-8 lb HSB, 10lb+ CC and BC, as well as yellow perch.

Thanks ewest and sunil
I appreciate your wisdom and suggestions.
I'll update as the mystery unfolds.

There is a thread in the archives somewhere of a member that had too many large golden shiners and was keeping records of removing them from his pond.

I believe he was both fishing and trapping.

Personally, I have never caught a GSH, so I am of no help at all to you. However, my foggy recollection is that there was lots of good advice in that thread.

I do like your careful management of your small pond. However, that certainly requires accurate sampling of all of your pond denizens.

Good luck finding your shiners!

I stocked them in my first pond. I caught a lot of them on worms.

I think "Shorty" was the member who had a pond with SMB and a lot of GSH.

Roger - reach out young man, will help however I can. If you have resident population of GSH they should frequent your pellet feeding areas - that's a good method to determine their presense. Cast net works well to sample their population density and condition.

My GSH definitely liked eating pellets.

Sunil was correct. I was thinking about Shorty.

Here is a good GSH thread started by Sunil for his 1/4 acre pond.

Adult Golden Shiner Survival

Here is some advice by Shorty and others for catching them.

Catching Golden Shiners

Thanks each and every one of you for your thoughtful suggestions, recommended links, and advice. I'll take all into account as I search for my GSH.
People's experiences with these forage fish populations in their ponds seem to be all over the place, reinforcing our belief that every pond is different.
A reason I chose to add GSH to my small pond was to diversify the forage base. Green sunfish GSF are doing every bit as well as bluegill BG and likely are severly limiting yellow perch YP recruitment. As an attempt to lessen predation on YP young, I've considered that the addition of the shiners as forage for the GSF could allow a few more YP to grow up.
"It depends" certainly applies. Now, the trick is to find out what is driving "It".

Roger I think the GSH and GSF are likely hammering your YOY YP resulting in low recruitment - I've found fisheries I manage with GSH forage bases seem to impact YP feeding frequency and population - I'm guessing they are cleaning up thousands of larval YP each Spring as GSH are quite piscivorous. I keep relying on GSH as forage because they're cheap, ubiquitous, and serve as forage for larger YP and SMB. Yet, as anything in pond and fishery management, it's a trade off for sure.

Bear in mind the larger gape of the GSF could continue utilizing even 2"+ YP as forage, unlike BG or GSH with limited gapes - so....here's an idea:

Trapping and intensive GSF angling would be a worthwhile management exercise and: Is fun - especially with beverage of choice nearby and your 2 wt rod and nymph rig or favorite popper. I've not eaten GSF but imagine they're equivalent to BG, which are fair tasting fillets IMO. I don't loathe GSF, but think your fishery would improve with significant population decline. You can also cage your GSF and feed them to your apex predators in pond - that's a hoot and Iove the repurposing effort.

Interesting about how the GSH may affect the YP population. My recruitment of YP in the 1/4 acre neighborhood pond was virtually non-existent, and I had floating X-mas trees out for YP spawning. I always attributed the lack of YOY perch to the other predators, but if they we're being picked off before that...crazy.


I recall reading on the forum someone saying the GSF fillets were a bit more mushy than BG, but I don't know.

Over time GSF are increasing in numbers more rapidly than BG, possibly the opposite of what we normally see with those two species and LMB. Both sunfish species are easy enough to control with my culling efforts. As I think I wrote earlier, one of the incentives to my stocking GSH was to take some predation pressure Off the YP young. Maybe I've done the opposite?

I did see two different GSHs cruising around yesterday as I sat on the dock feeding and enjoying. GSHs should be in school, right? Haha.

Regarding edibility of GSF vs BG, my observations are, from the very same BOW, GSF fillets are softer raw than those of BG but indishtinguishable once fried. They taste about the same, which is to say mild. I'd prefer a much more flavorful product like YP or LMB, but sunfish are what I mainly harvest for the pan. Both are fine for fish tacos.

I scale then fillet nearly all the fish we eat from the pond. GSF have quite a bit smaller scales that come off easily. Their bodies are softer than those of BG so downward scaling pressure feels different. The BG under 5" don't need to be scaled; theirs are fine enough to cook up and eat. A bass more than a pound may get cooked whole. The last nearly 4 pound bass got filleted and butter poached after Hank Shaw. Amazingly tasty.

If I were to renovate our pond, I'd stock YP and SMB without and sunfish. But I enjoy the large variety of species out there right now.

GSF of about all sizes live close to shoreline habitats. This is where Shiners and YP spawn with no parental care and when the fry hatch out it is a GSF buffet. Thus high numbers of GSF are present 24/7 around the spawning site to eat weak swimming fry fresh from the egg. I think even just common numbers of GSF can definitely control numbers of fish that are near shore spawners who provide no parental care. I hate GSF when trying to grow fish that spawn with no parental care. This is where D.Davidson and I have a "Y in the road for fish management".

IMO the good thing about GSF is they very readily enter fish traps even unbaited trapss placed close to near chore habitats such as rock piles and wood. GSF I think enter traps as a form of habitat security. Do as TJ suggested and put the GSF in a live box with lid and then trim their tails and feed them to your bass to make them very happy. My SMB just love eating tail trimmed GSF. GSF survive very durably for weeks without food in a live box. You need a lid on the live box because GSF are a high jumping fish.

Bill, I am with you in regards to GSF in ponds with BG and YP. I don't like them at all. Even HBG, with their larger mouths are not as desirable as pure BG.

If you haven't tried this already, go get some nice white cheap bread and chum for the shiners with small to medium sized pieces spreading them out in a wide area.
If the shiners are there, they will feed on the bread. If you have to walk all the way around the pond to check, then I would do that.
They can also be caught with a tiny hook and carefully tight rolled up piece of bread.

Thanks harrison.
I've been boating out on the open water in the center of the pond spreading ground up Endurance pellets to try to chum some shiners to the surface. No takers.
Once the mud settled last weekend from our pond weed raking, I was hoping to spot a bunch of them. No dice. One did make another appearance during sunfish feeding 3 days ago.

You're welcome,

Another thought is that they could have mostly all been eaten. I thought I read that you had put 250 shiners in a 1/4-acre pond. You would think the heavy vegetation would protect them but 250 to me doesn't sound like a lot.
I grew up fishing in a 2.1-acre pond that had nothing but golden shiners and some green sunfish. The entire pond was full of shiners. Some friends and I did some bucket stocking of bass, bluegill, and catfish we caught from local ponds. Now there is not a single shiner in entire pond. The predators ate every single one of those shiners. Now granted, there was little to no structure in the pond.

I would also like to add that perhaps the best fishing and fishery I have ever fished in was a pond in South Georgia that had about 25 to 50% dense submerged vegetation with a hardy, self-sustaining, established golden shiner population with many other healthy species of fish including lots of trophy largemouth bass, especially for a 2-acre pond.

I am in the process of building a bait fish pond above my other one, then opening a valve and draining it into the big pond whenever the time is right, I had a ton of shiners I stocked in the big pond but they seem to have been pretty much cleaned out, although I did catch a few 6" GS this spring and I see some shiner fry along the edge in the spring.

My biggest question is, how do they spawn as in what kind of cover do I need if I go with GS in my bait pond?

the way I have it set up is I can drain the bait pond down to about three ft of water will remain in the pond that I hope will hold enough brood stock to repopulate the bait pond.

I would pump it back full out of the big pond as soon as it was nearly drained.

do they need cover, tons of brush, or open water, what are their spawning habits?

TIA

GSH spawn in shallow vegetation or FA - I think the hatcheries use fibrous filters in their raceways for GSH eggs to adhere to and move them once fertilized to growout cells - but don't quote me on that process.

I was reviewing an article from Lusk on GSH which caused me to consider management of my larger sized GSH population:

"There’s this tiny, little ovarian parasite that rocks the world of golden shiners, and those people who produce them. Ovipleistophora ovariae is a parasite, of the class Microsporea. When it infects the ovaries of golden shiners, which it typically does after the fish spawn their first time, fecundity rates plummet, and usually by more than 40%. By the second year, most female golden shiners are functionally sterile. If the fish lives much longer than that, they are taking up space without offering much in return, such as adding to the food chain."

The last part really hit home - sterile adult females tying up carrying capacity. I have hundreds of 7"+ GSH in my largest pond that hammer Endurance BG feed, and since they inhabit a cool water predator species fishery with limited gape, that likely explains their population density - at that size only my largest SMB, HSB or WE can make a respectable effort at predation - and clearly they aren't successful too often.

So - I'll begin cast netting the feeding schools, collect and cage the largest fish, and repurpose them to my hand feed trained fish GSH chunks or freeze them for use later. GSH are easy to chunk with heavy duty kitchen shears - their scales are small and bones soft - much easier than BG.

TJ, sounds like an excellent plan to me.

Also good to comment that a large mass of sterile, 7" long fish that are NOT acting as forage are not doing anyone's ponds any good.

Have you considered putting a single large (presumably) male LMB in your pond? If you caught a 3# LMB during the spawn next spring and thought it was a male, that might be a good GSH "cleaner" in your pond. It shouldn't get huge like a female LMB and start eating the largest sizes of your desirable fish. And if you are wrong on sexing the bass, only adding a single fish makes it so you can't be REALLY wrong and have LMB reproduction in your nice cold water species ponds.

(Just thinking out loud on ways to cut your GSH population burden.)

Here is a post about what TJ noted. A serious issue.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthre...ipleistophora&Search=true#Post553030