Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking LMB in 1 ac pond

Question for experts. I believe I’m ready to give up on my HSB, SMB, YP, and RES experiment. We catch an occasional YP, on the small side. No SMB, and no HSB. There are still lots of golden shiners and RES/HBG cross of all sizes.
I’m thinking of just adding some LMB and letting them try and get control of the shiners and HBG. I don’t know what has happened to my SMB, and YP. I suspect more otters although I can’t find a trail, or any scat, or see otters like I have in the past. I have never seen any floating dead fish. Maybe something else is happening. Whatever it is does not affect the shiners or the HBG though.
So, how many and what sizes would you all recommend for LMB?
Thanks!

I’m thinking that maybe the SMB just aged out? It’s been close to 10 years since we stocked them. I’ve added a lot of YP over the years, but haven’t added any SMB. We were catching a few smaller ones, so I thought I was getting some reproduction. Now I’m not so sure.
This pic is from 3 1/2 years ago. Better days.

Remind us, what spawning structures have you placed and maintained for the YP and SMB?

Your experiment may have "failed" to some degree because it was in a new pond. Your pond is now significantly different as a mature 12 y.o. pond. You might try some modifications and have more success this time around because your pond is more fertile.

Also, do you have any other type of minnow in the pond after the FHM were presumably extirpated? Your pond looks pretty fertile to me in the pictures, so I suspect you had plenty of zooplankton and small aquatic insects to feed the YP and SMB as they moved from fry to fingerlings. However, as they moved from fingerlings to adults they sure could use an abundant minnow population to make that transition. Can you get any gambusia in your area? The ones in my creek grow very fast over the course of the summer and look like calorie-filled chunks to me.

Also, as Theo says, how is your spawning habitat? I was amazed at the larger size of the rocks used for bedding material by some of our members with good SMB recruitment. The guys with good YP recruitment frequently note the eggs draped on their spawning structures. Did you ever notice that, or work on that in your pond?

OTOH, there is a reason so many people stock LMB in their ponds. They are just easier to get good reproduction. If your family members are at the ages that there will be lots of fishing pressure over the next 5-6 years, maybe switch to a moderately heavy stocking of LMB and count on angling to keep their numbers correct. However, that will almost certainly require BG, which might not be a welcome addition for the recreational swimmers in your pond.

Good luck on your improvements for your Pond 2.0 version!

I built spawning beds around the south and east ends of the pond during construction. I made a lot of artificial structures and sank those. I also sank several cedar trees on three different years. I’ve added branches for the YP to lay ribbons in over the years, but most of those haven’t worked. The YP seemed to prefer laying ribbons in the leaves.
This could actually be the problem though. I’ll be the first to admit, the “maintained” part of your question is what I struggle with. I’m an absentee owner, and have too many other projects. I think I need a bit more maintenance free type stocking plan. I have trouble keeping the feeder running.

I answered Theo’s question above. My pond would (I believe) be classified as fertile. I do have a lot aquatic insects, and am still surprised at how many glass shrimp and crawdads I have. The FHM were cleaned out pretty quickly after the SMB and YP started to get some size. However the shiners are still pretty thick. I have a huge number of bull frog tadpoles and have had them pretty much every year. The number of HBG/RES cross fish I have is hard to estimate. But I believe that group is the largest fish population I have. I didn’t think the HBG would reproduce, but I never realized they would cross with my RES and explode. There should be plenty of food for LMB.
Besides the otters, I see GBH regularly, I had one cormorant, for a while, but he didn’t stay around long.
I’m definitely leaning towards a moderately heavy stocking of LMB. What would you consider that number to be, and what size LMB should I look for?
Thx

YP don't use branches to lay their eggs on if there are a lot of openings between the branches. Think of a Christmas tree that is 1-2 years old or a tumbleweed. Once the egg skein is on the bottom of the pond the eggs on the bottom don't get enough O2 to allow them to hatch.

I’ve been taking pictures of YP egg ribbons for 10+ years. In all types of branches and laying on the leaves right next to branches. My YP apparently lay them anywhere. I thought cedar branches would be best, but they seem to prefer the leaves. Who’d have thought?
Any idea how many LMB I should stock into this 1 ac pond? I was going to try and get them today.
Thx

Size and number of LMB really depends on 1. how fast you want to get small fish numbers reduced; 2. what sizes of small fish and really the specie you want reduced.

Remember the LMB IMO will be first consuming or targeting the more slender bodied prey as the biggest sizes that LMB can capture. Obviously IMO an 8" LMB will quicker eat a 3" YP compared to eating a 3" sunfish when both 3" the YP and sunfish are equal numbers. With using the LMB in your pond's current fishery, Plan on the YP population to be more quickly reduced compared to your sunfish in numbers in the panfishes. If it were me I would make some current catch written records from simple angling methods and sessions using worm/bobber and compare al that are caught over the next several years (3-6) then you will be able to better evaluate how the LMB are impacting the fishery balance from now into 2028 - 2032.

What do you expect the LMB to be ultimately doing as far as reducing fish sizes and density in 2027 and 2028? What are the sizes of the most abundant fish you want to remove??? All this info will help with providing better advice for sizes and numbers of LMB to best be stocked. Remind us as to pond size and water clarity.

Ok. Thanks. Appreciate the information.

To provide better info more facts are needed as per Bill's comments. However, since you are wanting to add LMB now remember that you can always add more LMB later, but it is not easy to reduce numbers. I prefer adding fewer larger LMB in situations like yours as you have more initial control over survival numbers. I would add about 10 1 lb LMB and be sure to get some males and some females.

SetterGuy,

I couldn't remember if you were absentee or not. I believe most of our best intensive pond managers live at or near their ponds. I too miss some important deadlines on managing our property when I get stuck at work for complicated projects or have family obligations. IMO, an absentee management plan should probably include a few modifications from the "ideal" scenario.

I am not qualified to answer your LMB stocking questions, but you did get esshup and Bill Cody in the thread so that should help you.

What sizes of LMB are available from your fish supplier? If there are some size choices, I would ask our experts which is the best fit for your situation. If needed, you can always add more later. (Unless of course the supplier is delivering? Then you really need to spread that transportation fee over the correct amount of LMB on a one-time deal.)

I’m an absentee owner, and getting more absent by the day. Too much on my plate at this time. I completely confess I’m looking for the easy button. I’m wondering now if neighbors aren’t sneaking in. We fished hard today. Caught one RES and 40+ what I call mutts. Part HBG, RES, and SF. Catching all sizes. No swirls anywhere in the pond. The big swirls used to be very common. Here’s our catch today.
Dragged a net up the bank and caught 3 crawdads and two glass shrimp. Pic too big to load.
I think the pond is still healthy. It just doesn’t have any sizable fish left in it. I’ll find the largest LMB I can find, hopefully feed trained, and get them stocked. Then literally just cross my fingers.
We will also stop the catch and release. Just to try and control LMB numbers.
Thx

Sorry to hear about the loss of your larger fish.

Sounds like poachers to me. Either otters or the 2-legged kind. (I have the 2-legged kind on my property periodically.)

Do you have a game camera up? Many of the newer cameras have a "time lapse" setting. I now have some more obscured cameras on my property set on time lapse so they don't need to be triggered to catch a picture of an otter or a distant human.

One time, I even had trespassers remove the chip from a camera that was covering my best fishing spot, but not steal the camera. Which is a strange morality.

I do have a game camera on the pond. And it’s up high enough someone would need to bring in a ladder to get to it. But it doesn’t show the entire shoreline. I guess someone could have got in, but I don’t think so. I’m not seeing evidence of otters either. Maybe I didn’t get the reproduction I thought I was getting. And all the SMB aged out after they ate all the YP little ones. There are still some YP present. Just not many. Might be some SMB also, but have been educated by all the previous dishing. Either way, we can get enough fish for a fish fry. Just the schools of mixed crosses pictured above.
I’ve always had great luck catching LMB. Maybe not as tasty as YP, but catchable. Ha.
Thx

Any chance of fish kill event? I had 2 fish kill events related to sudden influx of cold water and heavier than usual snow and ice this past winter. I'm pretty much starting over as well.

If there was a fish kill, I’ve never found any evidence of one. I’ve seen very few, maybe a dozen, dead fish in the last 11 years. All smaller. I did find a spot on the dam this spring where something ate a large fish. At least the scales left behind were pretty big. Just the scales left behind, and only the one place. I mow pretty much every 2 weeks. I’m up there a bunch from mid October to mid December. Not so much during January and February. So maybe that’s when whatever happened happened.

Setter Guy, I don't know the layout of your pond or if it has trees around it or not, but from a bass fishing point of view, in the spring, the first areas of any body of water to warm are the northwest shorelines. This warmer water brings in the first spawning bass of the year because the sun rising from the southeast hits it first and has a longer period to warm. You might want to place some spawning beds in the northeast part of your pond to see if that helps with any recruitment. Just a thought.

Terry
PondStat

Will do. I’ll toss in some cedar trees along the bank. I’m still deciding on how many and when. I’m thinking October will be a bit cooler. Might be a more healthy environment.
I built SMB beds when I built the pond, but I was just learning. The beds are on the south side of the pond (inlet) but very shaded. Our pond sits in the woods. In the pic, south is at the top. The dam is the north end of the pond. (Bottom of picture)

Hi Setterguy, Looking at your pond, that dam would make really good spawning area. But, in my experience with SMB prefer much clearer water and lots of rock. There is no doubt the pond is fertile, it just might not be the right pond for SMB. I'm sure LMB would thrive in there, though. If it were my pond, I'd try building some spawning areas on the NW corner of the pond. I took your map, rotated it, placed a compass on it, and marked in red where I'd concentrate placing spawing areas not just for bass but maybe even the YP. Maybe some others on here have ideas?

Keep us posted on how things develop.

It wasn’t perfect. We had SMB in it for 11 years. They did pretty well, but did not have a lot of recruitment. We caught offspring through the years of various sizes, but not a lot. This smaller one was caught last year. There might be a couple left, but the days where I could catch 5-8 in a morning are gone. We kept very few over the years. Maybe 10 total of the 60 stockers. The trees provide a fair amount of shade, so my water temps never get very high. I built several spawning beds for them when we built, but the beds are on the south/inlet end. I still see a larger fish occasionally moving through the water, but a small fraction of the activity we used to see. I just don’t think I provided enough structure for the SMB and YP to keep away from the otters. And I don’t want to start back down that long path.
There’s millions of golden shiners and weird RES/HBG crosses left, that’s about it. We’ve caught one YP, and Zero SMB this year. We had five otters in the small one ac pond a few years ago. I drove them out, but I think I’m getting return visits. I just don’t get up to visit the pond as often as I used to.
I’m hoping LMB can thrive with all the smaller fish, and loads of crawfish, and glass shrimp. Maybe they can out produce the otters
I’ll throw in the cedars along that bank, there’s a lot of rock all around the pond. We almost quit the project during the build because there was so much rock in the clay.
Pic of last SMB caught. By grandson last September. This is not an original stocker. The one my wife is hold is an original stocker caught two years ago, and released.

The problm with otters is they're very stubborn animals and can get into anything. So, I don't think you can build a hiding structure for the bass without the otters figuring out how to get into it. Then, during the spawn, when the males won't leave the nest, that makes them even more vulnerable. Are otters protected in MO? Is it possible to call the mO DNF and have them removed? I'm sure some other person would love to make a home for those "cute" little buggers. LOL.

PS:, Those are nice smallies your grandson and wife have there!!! I see why you're upset...

There’s a trapping season here in MO. I talked to my agent. He made it clear I “do not” want any otters near my pond. When the first five left they went to where all otters go in the afterlife. They are cute, but I dislike them immensely.


Thx, not so upset anymore. Disappointed and resigned. I remember a guy here a few years ago that was fighting otters down in Arkansas. All I could think of then, was I’m glad I do t have to fight that. Well… If the LMB can’t make a go of it, with the added cedar trees, I’ve still got a great swimming pond. Ha

I'll make sure and say a prayer for them. I wonder if five of them is enough to make a shawl out of? You wife might like that. LOL


Don't give up. Just feed the otters a high-velocity lead diet and they'll go away. :-D Then you'll have a nice LMB fishery.

On a side note, I have a 30-40lb beaver in the creek behind my house. My son and I see it nearly every day when we're down there fishing. It doesn't eat the fish but it has wreaked havoc with my willow trees. The little bugger seems to let them grown to about 20 feet and then in one night chews the things down. If I still lived in Idaho, I could make a beaver hat out of the thing but here in TN they're protected. I'm considering getting a bow and taking it fishing with me...............