Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Looking to stock a small spring fed pond

I'm in Northern Utah

I have a pond that's about 75 ft in diameter and about 8 ft deep at the deepest point, most of the pond is shallower.

It is spring fed and the spring flows at about 100 to 200 gpm. I estimate the water is exchanged about once a day. So the temperature remains in the 50s year round, never freezes, but never gets warm either.

Looking for something that could help with algae control, but most importantly will breed in water that never gets very warm. Not crazy about the idea of trout, but if that's my only reasonable choice I might change my views on that. I have tried adding blue gill, but I suspect they will not breed in the pond. Put a few goldfish in, and they looked ok, until the local heron discovered them.

Any advice would be appreciated.

In about a tenth of an acre, you might not want anything that will breed, period,

The only fish that could pull off a successful spawn in that water temp would be Yellow Perch. I don't have any idea where you could get them in Utah, and I don't know if they allow them. Some states have different regulations. Don't add any more goldfish, they will stir up the pond bottom and make the pond turbid. The only saving grace for your pond is the high water flow into and out of your pond. Hopefully that will be enough to keep the water clearer.

BG need higher water temps to reproduce. So do most every other fish that are stocked in ponds. Some predators might be able to reproduce but then you will have to continually add fish to feed them. In that size pond, you are better off management wise (effort wise) just to stock non-reproducing predator fish like Hybrid Striped Bass. I would plan on adding an automatic solar powered fish feeder. I don't know of any forage fish that will reproduce at that water temp in enough numbers to feed the fish in the pond.

There aren't any fish that I know of that will target eating algae and that can survive in that water temperature. That's very close to lethal temp for Tilapia, and Triploid Grass Carp don't focus on eating algae. Trout are sensitive to copper based algaecides, so you would have to use something like Green Clean Plus for the algae instead of Cutrine Plus. Depending on the amount of nutrients in the spring, algae might not be an issue if you could get some native underwater plants established in the pond.

What are your goals for the pond?

For example, do you want fish to eat, but think trout are too oily?

Do you want fish for kids to catch? (Sometimes lots of small fish is acceptable in that scenario.)

Do you fish the nearby streams and lakes? (If so, then you may be able to hand stock your pond. You can put in a few small ones as Theo says above, and then catch them a year or two later after they have grown larger.)

There are some unusual fish in your area, compared to the warmer-water ponds of most of the Pond Boss members. Have you ever caught Mountain Whitefish in your area? They actually spawn in the fall as the water is getting colder, and then the fish hatch in the spring. They might be able to pull off a spawn in your small pond?


I would search for the local fish suppliers in your area. (You may need to look up to 200 miles in your location?) See what they have available. Usually they only stock species that will thrive in the climate conditions of the area. I suspect your choices may be limited.


Algae

Do you have an algal bloom that stains the water green, or do you have nasty filamentous algae?

If you have FA, no fish that survives in your cold water is capable of reducing the algae. You need to try other methods. You should probably read some of the threads in the archives about filamentous algae.

The FA in your pond is dependent upon the nutrients and the sunlight. Generally, the nutrients are the only variable you can modify since you cannot effectively dye a pond with lots of water flow through.

Planting some emergent plants in the shallow margins of your pond so that they "steal" nutrients from the FA is probably your best option.

Do you have a house or cabin overlooking the pond? There are some attractive plantings you can pursue. If your pond is remote, then you can choose your plants based on efficiency.

The ideal plants are ones that thrive in your area, but that do NOT spread rapidly! And definitely no "invasive" species.

We have very few members in your neck of the woods, and I certainly don't know which plant species would be appropriate for your pond. You might read a few threads about beneficial plants - to see how members "think" about adding plants to their ponds. Obviously, plants from East Texas are not going to do well in your pond.

Good luck on your pond development project! If you add a few more goals to your post, you might get some better topical advice from some of our members.

Great! Two posts in two days where I was typing (slowly) while esshup was also making a comment.

I wish I could use my super-hero level ESP powers to help humanity, rather than just make redundant Pond Boss comments!

I would try and remove the goldfish. IMO it is good the herons are eating the goldfish. As noted by esshup they (GF) when reproducing can cause water clarity problems. The cold water temps may prevent them (GF) from thriving in the pond. For your small cold water pond with good regular water flow through exchange, I think your best and most usable option is to use trout.

As aptly noted by Theo you don't really want fish in there reproducing that will need added management concerns.

With trout Start with a low number of trout such as 5 - 10 - 20. There are several species of trout that could be used depending on what local fish farms provide. If you plan to harvest some you could stock 25-30 to harvest about 5-10 each year. Fewer trout means you would be adding less fish food to keep them growing. You will be able to control their growth rate by how much you feed them. No feeding them at all means they stay small (9-10") , more or less stunted. Feeding 10 trout a day a cup of food a day means the 10 are growing pretty fast - maybe to 3 to 5 pounds each. Invite friends over for a grilled or smoked trout party. Harvest and restock according to your harvested number. They won't live forever so if you decide when and if you want another type of fishery it will be relatively easy to do. Just add the new stockers.

Please, please return periodically and tell us about the progress of your very interesting small cold water fishery. We are interested and some are even jealous.

Being the water exchange is relatively rapid, I assume the algae problem is an attached specialized cold water form of filamentous algae because planktonic algae blooms would be constantly leaving the pond system. Plus most planktonic algae species do not really thrive in cold water to produce fast enough to cause green water. It does happen, but it is not common. As noted by esshup,,,, algae control would be manual removal such as raking or dipping floating mats and/or using the safe hydrogen peroxide based algaecides such as Green Clean Pro or Phycomycin. These algaecides have no copper in the formulation to harm copper sensitive species.

Some of us will never qualify for the Justice League.

ROFL. That's because I can use 8 fingers and one thumb to type with. AND don't have to look at the keyboard to type.

esshup - My graduate school major old professor was great, smart, experienced, well published and thoughtful of his students. Interesting he used just two fingers to do all his typing. He was surprisingly darn fast at it. I never had the nerve to tease him about it for fear of him maybe being in the "Justice League".

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it.


Good question, my primary goal is just to have an attractive backyard pond. Fish would be nice, but which fish doesn't matter so much as just having a nice looking pond. Fish grandkids could catch would be nice, but not necessary.

No expert here, but I think it is filamentous algae, the water is pretty clear, even with the algae, no green soup look.

Not a bad idea, and I have already tried doing it a little. Nearby lakes have warm water species like bluegill, perch, crappie, bass, etc. However they warm in summer to 70+ Nearby streams are colder and mostly trout. I put a few perch in last fall, but no sign of them now.

The algae is a big problem. I assume the flow-through makes it worse, a fresh supply of nutrients all the time... About 2 weeks ago I did the manual removal, with lots of help. We filled the 1/3 yard bucket on my tractor 24 times... that's about 8 yards of algae. I had cleaned the pond in the fall, so this is just what grew over winter. When I saw it coming back I tried copper sulfate, the first couple of times it didn't work. Then about a week ago I added enough copper sulfate to result in about 2 ppm as CuSO4, my aerator mixed it pretty well. That worked, pretty much wiped the algae out, but now just a week later its coming back. So one of my objectives is to find as many algae eaters as possible. Don't like the idea of the heavy does of copper once a week forever...

As to emergent plants I have tried planting lillie pads, but so far not much luck getting them established. I do have some cattails, but raking the algae out is hard on them.

I've attached a couple of pictures, one last year showing algae, one today. The pond was at it's lowest level in last year's picture, I am able to drain down to that point, but not completely. This year I have it about as full as I feel safe making it.

All suggestions appreciated.

Copper is a heavy metal in some algaecides. Copper is stable in the environment. It does not rot up or decompose. High amount of copper accumulated in the pond sediments can become an ecological problem in the pond. Copper in VERY LOW concentrations kills trout. Cu at 2ppm is able to kill lots of fish species.

Obviously the aeration in the pond does very little to suppress FA growth. Places that sell aerators say aeration reduces algae. I do not believe aeration reduces algae problems.

Evidently the pond has a high accumulation of nutrient enriched bottom sediments that are decomposing and feeding the large amounts of filamentous algae (FA). If you can get the incoming spring water tested for nitrate and phosphorus during when the FA is thriving this will help a lot to figure our where all the nutrients are coming from to feed and stimulate high amounts of the FA. Something is feeding it. My money is on nutrient recycling within the pond. If yes, get estimates of getting the pond sediment dipped out and removing lots of nutrient enriched bottom sludge. If you have as much water flow through as you say, the dipping process and roiling up the water will also flush out some dissolved nutrients in the dipping process. The pond should grow a lot less algae after a significant amount of nutrient enriched sediment is removed.

Unfortunately there are no easy solutions.

Yes, those do look like classic FA mats floating in your pond. (Although pics over the internet is a poor means of identification.)

The only fish that truly eats FA are tilapia. They would not breed or thrive in your pond. I would NOT add a grass carp. Usually they prefer any plants you are trying to add compared to eating any algae.

Does your pond ever go dry when your region is in a drought? If so, you could clean out several inches of muck with your tractor - which is probably the nutrient-rich substrate for growing.

Is there any natural "fertilizer" that is reaching your pond? Such as livestock waste, or waterfowl on the pond? Eliminating that source would probably starve the FA at least a little bit.

You said you had trouble establishing lily pads. Usually it is difficult to establish rooted plants when something in the pond is grazing on the plants. Some suspects are turtles, crayfish, and carp. Do you have any of those?

Do you have any big cracked tubs on the property that are now worthless? You could put a couple of inches of gravel in the bottom and then good topsoil in the top and then place it in the pond on a little flat spot at the optimal depth for your species of lily. You might be able to get a good plant started in that fashion.

They do make pond rakes for pulling out the algal mats. Some pond owners on the forum have attached a pool float and a rope. You (or another fit family member) could probably sling it almost to the center of the pond. Perhaps just do a big clean up on the mats before you are holding a family event and want the pond to look nice? You could even do a once/year chemical algaecide treatment if you wanted.

When you do pull the algal matts you need to deposit the waste outside of the watershed basin of the pond. (I assume that is what you did with the tractor bucket loads.) You cannot let the mats decay on the bank, or the nutrients will just re-enter the pond over the next year. You can let them dry on the banks (to get lighter) and then move the FA.

The good news is that you are actually pulling out some nutrients when you remove the algal mats. You won't see much progress at first, but you might start winning the battle after a few years.

P.S. What kind of perch are you catching in the area? If you are catching yellow perch, there is a fair chance that they may thrive and even spawn in your pond. They are fun for grandkids to catch and they are VERY tasty to eat.

You would probably need to lay some cut sapling branches down the pond slopes in 1-5' of water for them to drape eggs in the spring. If you did get a good spawn, then you could try to prevent them from spawning the next year, and just grow one year-class of fish in your pond so you don't get too many fish.

Without draining completely and taking an excavator to dig out all the accumulated organic matter, I am afraid you will be fighting the FA for years to come. You could try the products that are on the market to sequester the excess nutrients, or just put that money towards cleaning out the pond. Renting a 2" or 3" trash pump and pumping it as dry as possible, then digging out the organics is the way I'd go if it were my pond.

There are places here that will rent "long stick" excavators that people use to clean out ditches. Maybe only 1/2 to 1 yard bucket, but they have them here that have up to a 72' boom, so a long stick could get to the whole pond as it tracks around the shoreline. Typically the pond will be drained down by a trash pump, a sump dug in the pond, then the pump placed in the sump to keep the water from puddling up in the rest of the pond.

You say 100-200 gpm. inflow from the Spring. That's 6,000-12,000 gph. From the pictures I find that hard to believe, but in any case, a 3" trash pump will pump 14,000-15,000 gph, a 4" trash pump will move around 24,000 gph, which is more than enough to keep the pond dry as it's cleaned out. If it pumps out way more water than comes in, it can be throttled back to pump less gph. You don't want to keep pumping out ALL the water and loosing prime on the pump. That would be a PITA to deal with on a constant basis.

In looking at your pictures, I would recommend that you start controlling the cattails that are growing there now. Aquatic rated glyphosate with surfactant applied according to the label. If you let the cattails go, they will completely take over the pond and you won't be able to access the pond in a few years. Now if you will go the drain/excavate and refill route, then don't kill them because they will be removed when you remove the built up sediment.

Yes, it's not as cheap as just treating the FA and cattails. But at some point in time the aggravation of constantly having to battle the FA will cause you to clean out the pond, and all the $$ spent managing the FA will have been thrown away.

Before you do anything though, I would use the boat and a piece of EMT tubing to try and measure the remaining muck depth in the pond, and see if you can get a clean water sample of the incoming spring water to test it for nutrients. knowing those two things will help you to make an educated decision on what route to take to save the most $$ in the future.

Thanks guys, good advice. You've given me lots to think about...

I am pretty sure of the flow rate, the State Department of Water Rights rates it as a 1/2 cfs spring, and the have allocated downstream water rights based on that flow. That would be about 225 gpm. I can drain about 80% of the water from the pond, it only takes about 24 hr for the pond to refill. I figure that's about 200,000 gallons of water in 24 hours, or about 140 gpm. So I think the 100 something gpm range is about right. The dredging guy who looked at it estimated 100 to 200 gpm looking at the overflow. The spring is headwaters for a small creek, used for livestock watering and irrigation downstream.

No real way to sample the spring water directly, water flows in from most of the bottom, seeps really. I did not dig the pond, that was done over 50 years ago. What I think they did was find a sand lense and just dug it out.

I have had some estimates to clean the muck, $17k for hydraulic dredging, less for an excavator. However the guy who I spoke to about the excavator warned me that it was possible excavating could create a channel to drain the pond... The dredger was giving no guarantees, and $17k is a lot to spend for something that might work.

I have probed the bottom, where the pond is deepest, about 8 ft of water. Below that there is probably 4 or 5 feet of soft muck before hitting harder material. So maybe the original depth was ~12 ft.

I honestly would not mind the cattails, better than the algae. My fear is I might end up with both. Is there a water depth limit on cattails growing? These seem to grow slower than the cattails I have in wet areas just north of the pond, maybe the cold summer water?

I put the aerator in as a lower cost attempt at algae control. The water turbulence it creates does help maintain a smaller algae free area, and probably slows the algae's recovery, but it's no cure.

17K is IMO too much by IMO 2X to dig out your small 0.1 ac pond with a long reach track hoe. Get other estimates, It should only take a good day of slop removal to get the job done. Consider renting a trash pump to keep the water level low,,, so the track hoe operator can better see what he is doing. Ponds are sooner later an expense. IMO that organic bottom muck is the main cause of the large growths of FA.. In cold water i think it could be Stigeoclonium or some other cold water loving species.

The water at usual temp of 50F is too cold for any fish to thrive in there except cold water species such as trout.

Thanks for your response Bill.

The 17k was for hydraulic dredging and a diver. The lowest I can drain the pond is to a depth of about 4 or 5 feet (deepest point) and add the 4 or 5 feet of muck to that I can see why a diver might be needed.

The trackhoe was less, but that guy was very reluctant because of what he said was the risk of penetrating bottom and draining the pond. I did rent a regular trackhoe and hired an operator to make the slope more gentle and remove a lot of concrete rubble. But there was no way he could reach the deep areas. Just driving the trackhoe to the water's edge was sketchy, soil too soft. The water flowing up makes for a kind of quicksand condition.

It is also possible that if I found a large enough pump the bottom could be unstable due to that quick condition. I am an engineer, but not a soils expert...

You are probably right about the trout, actual water temperature is usually 54 or 55. I doubt trout would eat much algae

I'm retired and can use the project, just need to figure out what to try next. You can understand why I was hoping I could find some robust algae eaters, fish or anything... but that sounds like a bit of a pipedream.

You can use the 4" trash pump to keep the pond dry (dry is a relative term) so the excavator can dig in the dry. It will be wet, but not wet enough that the water sloshes the dirt/muck out of the bucket. Start with the pump above the water line. Pump the pond down as deep as possible since pumps are designed to push vs. suck water. Then once the pond is down, have the excavator dig you a shelf to move the pump down to. That way the pump won't be sucking water up a great distance, it will be pushing it up.

Take the inlet hose with screen and shove it through a truck inner tube that is inflated. Have the screen hanging down about 24" from the inner tube. More if it sucks air and creates a vortex that sucks air. That way the screen isn't sucking the bottom of the pond up and pushing it through the pump. I filled up a 30' long intake hose with sand and couldn't move it. Strapped it to the bucket on the excavator and ripped it in half trying to lift it up to shake the sand out. That's when I learned about the inner tube trick.

If the excavator operator can see what he's doing, he will know when he's gotten all the muck out and started working on the original pond bottom. If he sees that, then it's time to move over and start on another area. He can't dig straight down because the muck will continue to fall into the hole. Go talk to the counties NRCS office and get a list of excavating companies that build ponds. Every county in the USA has their own NRCS office, or they share an office with the county next door. You need an operator that knows what he's doing. Even if they might not have their own equipment, you are talking 2 days max once the water is pumped out.

Don't be afraid of pumping the water out and keeping the pump running 24 hr/day. I could tell you a 6 figure horror story about a company NOT pumping the water out and trying to dig a pond. You HAVE TO keep the water pumped out as he's getting the muck out.

Last time I had a pond quoted for hydraulic dredging they were in the mid $50/cu. yd. range but that was years ago.

Oh, the cattails won't utilize enough of the nutrients to stop the algae from growing and cattails can grow out to 48" deep water or greater.

The NRCS office will likely not give you any scoring on their list of excavators (certainly no official scoring), but with their contact info you can ask the excavators if any have done similar renovation work. Ask for references of their customers, and check to see how they did. (You most likely won't get any unsatisfied customers, but you should at least have some satisfied ones to talk to.)

Theo, you are absolutely correct. If the contractor list is long, I have had good luck asking them this question.

I know that you can't recommend any contractors that are on the list. But, if you were calling around asking the contractors for your personal pond, who would be the first 5 or 10 that you would call?

IMO your best answer is to not get or find a fish to eat all the continual production of green growth because what will happen to the pond's overall water quality with all the manure produced by however many fish it takes to eat all that algae? More recycled nutrients from all that manure definitely means some form of nutrient surge and then more new plant growth and maybe even more growth that is now present.

Based on all the concerns and problems with the existing pond, it might be cheaper and IMO definitely a MUCH better end benefit to get quotes from some dependable contractors to dig a whole new small 0.1 ac pond and use the spoils dirt to fill in the old pond. This way you eliminate all the old nutrient enriched algae growing sludge and start anew wisely managing a new spring fed cold water pond; providing you still want a pond. IMO you should be able to do it for less than 17K and then have a brand new fresh pond with very minimal nutrient - algae problems.

That's a great idea Bill! It could be right next to it if there is room. Maybe close enough that some of the spoils could be moved from new to old by the excavator doing a 180° swing.

A follow up. I appreciate all the advice, and I did look into some kind of excavation or dredging. Decided against it as the contractor warned me that it could create more leakage in the pond bottom. Leakage comes out in the neighbors horse pasture and makes a muddy mess. And it was expensive.

So I tried fish, I stocked catfish, bluegill, mosquito fish, crawfish, and snails back in about March. Now the algae is almost completely gone, I went from 95% algae covered mess to less than 5%. Really a miraculous change, it has never been so algae free.

The only other change in the pond has been due to our drought, probably the driest year since the ice age. Our spring stopped flowing for about a month and the pond dropped a bit, but then flow started up again albeit slower than normal. According to the neighbors its the first time it has dried up in anyone's memories. The spring is regulated by the state of Utah water rights people, they rate it at 0.5 cfs. Farmers downstream use it for irrigation, but not this year.

Cat tails are doing well, probably too well, but they give the fish a place to hide and we don't mind them.

The pond is about 75 ft in diameter and 8 ft at the deepest point. Most years the spring flow keeps the temperature close to 55, but this year due to low flow it has warmed to about 75.

Nice.

When life gives you lemons ... make a nice little pond!