Pond Boss Forums AERATION Systems questions Pumping water off grid?

I want to run water to a stocktank to water cattle during cold weather. I'd like to run a pipe underground from the lake to a stock tank, then a overflow pipe that returns it back to the lake. Figure constant moving water won't freeze.


Only need to lift 5 or 6 foot total. I don't think it would need much volume to work.

No grid power.

Is there a proven system that I need to look at? I'm good with tinkering and inventing stuff to fill a need, but would rather just use something that's already been figured out. If anyone has this type of thing already done I'd bet it's a pond guy!

Swapping out a battery once a week or re-fueling once a week would be acceptable. I don't want to go down there very day though.

Suggestions?

How far is the stock tank from the lake (horizontal distance)?

A tiny solar panel and a battery can power miles of electric fence, because it is using zero energy 99% of the time. Continuously pumping water such that it doesn't freeze in the lines will be a much larger energy requirement.

Are you also trying to cycle enough water that your tank does not freeze?

Just had another thought. Pumping air is more energy efficient than pumping water.

How great are the cattle's daily water needs? Could you put a diffuser in the tank and use aeration to keep one section ice free?

You also might consider some insulation. If you stapled a black plastic drop cloth onto some foam insulation and covered 80% of the tank surface, you might get a significant improvement. That might work well for your upcoming weather with highs of 38F and lows of 20F.

I do NOT think that would work for the stretches of nights with lows of -4F, but every rancher I know has to put in heroic measures for their cattle for those brief periods.

look in to a ram pump. it may work if you have enough drop, dose not use electricity.

FishinRod,
The idea is to flow enough water so that it doesn't freeze. I'd be willing to bury the tank and run the pips underground. But a constant flow will be needed when it's cold.

Pumping air might keep water open but it doesn't replace what they drink (cattle drink a TON). Pumping air in the lake would keep water open, but they'd still tear up the bank.


nehunter,
I've looked into them. I won't have any drop or flow for the intake. I'm coming up with a blank on how to make one work.

They make a buried concrete tank that you can insulate real well so that you cut down on freezing as much, then the drill a pin hole in a piece of copper tubing that comes off the supply line from the pond, will keep the surface moving enough to keep it from freezing.

Remember to have the supply line coming from the pond coming from a deeper elevation so the water isn't quite as cold, also the lower the tank is below the pond elevation the more pressure you will have coming out of the pin hole to achieve more water movement at the surface.

The tank is designed that the upper water level has a overflow going out the back again and we install a drain to carry that water way away from the tank area to keep it from creating a mud hole right in front of the tank.

I know this doesn't have the recovery option to put the water back in the pond like you prefer, but it can be shut off so that you only use it during really cold spells, thereby minimizing your water losses, usually we receive enough spring rains to restore the losses.

I have installed several of these for customers and for the most part they seem to be happy with them.

The eternal frost free, off grid, no power, cattle waterer, that is foolproof is the dream of every cattle rancher out there. Maybe I will invent one someday, Id be rich.

Maybe I missed it, how are you pumping the water?

Yep, I was afraid that your two biggest hurdles were no grid power and LOTS of cattle to water. That is a tough combination.

I can't remember, are your cattle fenced off from your big watershed lake, or do they have access to the water in the summer?

I am asking because I think a separate cattle pond built AT GRADE may be your most idiot proof solution for a water supply that can survive bitter cold conditions.

You could excavate a small cattle pond just beyond your existing lake fence line, and get the bottom below your "normal" winter water elevation. Run a 6" pipeline to your lake so there is a constant supply of water to to the cattle pond to replace their drinking requirement. You can then install a solar panel and battery system to run an aerator and keep a section of that pond open for cattle access.

I suspect you also have existing small cattle ponds scattered around your property that perhaps get too low during the winter? If one of those is "near" your big lake, you could use a similar system as I described above. On one of the "warm" Kansas days that occurs in a cold snap, you would need to fire up your gasoline powered trash pump and move water from the lake to your winter cattle pond. A 2" trash pump (150 gpm) or a 3" trash pump (280 gpm) can move a lot of water.

You just need a drain valve at the bottom of your discharge line to the winter pond. Open the valve and drain the line after each use, and then a pipeline on the surface would still be usable during the winter.

I am throwing out crazy alternatives because constantly pumping water is a lot of HP for an off-grid electrical system. If you want to go that route, calculate your cattle water requirement PLUS some cushion for freeze prevention circulation and then size a centrifugal pump to match that flow. Post the HP of that pump on the forum, and some of the solar experts can estimate the solar panel and battery requirements to have that pump run for a week straight under a January sun. I believe that will require a very large (and expensive) system.

P.S. I also can't remember if you or some of your family lives full time out at your property? If so, then an air pump by the house and grid electricity, plus LOTS of air pipeline may be your cheapest and easiest solution?

6 ponds total, every pasture has water. I live right above the big pond.


My main concern right now is preserving the bank on the big pond.


Push come to shove I can fence off a small ramp that they can access and keep them off the rest of it. It would still require breaking ice during cold spells and some erosion problems, but at least they wouldn't be big erosion problems. I've already shoved over 100 tons of rock into this bank.

Excellent! That is the standard set-up of every wise rancher I know.

In addition to destroying the banks, the cattle also quickly fertilize the small ponds that they share with fish populations. If the cattle have had access to your big lake for many years, then I assume you are confident that BOW has enough water flow-through that your nutrient influx from the cattle is NOT a problem?

If that is the case, then it sounds like using your biggest body of water to fight winter ice is going to be your easiest solution.

I like your idea to limit the cattle to a single point of access. At least that should protect all of the rest of your shoreline.

There have been several past discussions on Pond Boss about cattle-pond trade offs, but I don't recall a single discussion about the best way to create a bank entry point for them to not destroy the bank and minimize the degree to which they muddy the pond. Placing cobble-size rock would protect the banks the best, yet cattle HATE that material for walking. You may be one of our best experts on the forum for that particular topic, so I am no help at all.

Once you do create your best "cattle area", a solar panel with battery and aerator may be your simplest solution to solve your "ice problem" for about 90% of a Kansas winter.

For the really cold stretches, you might try the buried/insulated stock tank solutions as mentioned above. If you installed a dedicated suction intake line into the lake during the fall, you could at least pull up in your truck with a gasoline trash pump and fill it in 30" during the first really bad cold snap.

Finally, I can't remember if your family owns some earthmoving equipment? If you have a low bank somewhere, it might be easier to excavate a shallow pond with a narrow inlet to the main lake compared to rocking off a large section of your shoreline. If you fence off the inlet, then the cattle can have their own nice pond with easy access shallow banks. Shallower ponds are cheaper to build, but will ice over more easily. However, a bit of aeration should be enough to keep a portion ice-free for most of the winter.

P.S. One of my neighbors has some old horse troughs that he uses for emergency cattle water when they can't chop through the thick ice any more. He leaves them on their sides on some concrete pavers so they don't freeze to the ground. During the worst times, he tips them up and fills them with water delivered from the back of his dually.

Good luck on keeping your cattle happy! I am never envious when I see guys around my property using chainsaws and axes on the water tanks during the coldest days of the year. Working that hard in the cold -while getting splashed - looks like zero fun to me.

We have a skidsteer and a tractor. A little bit of digging is no problem.


It's a great pasture for cold/snow and calving. It's the easiest to get to when things are slick and the easiest to keep water open in. But, the damage the last 2 weeks has been significant. Not just on the boat ramp (dirt) where they are drinking, but also with their trails.


I'm thinking the best option will be to fence off a 20ft buffer of bank with just a single point that's graveled for the cattle. Planting a pollinator mix in there would be nice too.

Also a food plot for the deer could be in order further up from the pond. Keep cattle off until weather gets bad in Jan/Feb, then have them dump hay and feed on the plot. It would keep them up the hill some and be great fertilizer/organic matter for the plot.

Sounds like an excellent plan!

When I am doing "unique" projects, I sometimes let the perfect become the enemy of the good. I would perform your project according to your best plan, and then be willing to make some modifications when the cattle decide to not quite follow your new "guidance" correctly.

Have fun on your project this spring! If you do find an innovative solution to creating a good cattle access point, you might want to come back and post some guidance on the forum. Lots of people from the Gulf Coast to the Canadian border have the combination of ponds and the cattle that like to destroy them.

More thoughts:

1.) Gravel does like to eventually sink through soft mud and disappear. You might want to put down some tough landscape fabric first to prevent your gravel from sinking. I think cattle hooves will probably punch some holes or crescents in your fabric. Even so, I think it would still be a good investment in time/money to use the fabric as part of your long term solution.

2.) Lots of threads on Pond Boss about beach sand placed on a sloping shore tending to migrate into deeper water. If you ever get a very low water level in your main lake, then you might use that opportunity to build a ledge or berm a bit offshore (at normal pool) of your cattle bank. That should slow your rate of gravel working down the slope due to the action of the cattle.

I've got some geotextile but doubt I'll use it.

Probably buy a load of 4-6 inch rock (anything rip-rap sized that I can find) for a base layer. It'll cost but might be worth it in the long run.

Put 1-2 inch gravel on top of that.


Will need to see what I can find to work with.

What you want to do should be no big deal. The biggest part of the job will be running the pipe underground to the different tanks. You can run black poly pipe from the pump to the stock tanks, but FROM the stock tanks to the pond the drain pipe has to be 2x to 3x the diameter of the feed pipe because there is no pressure pushing water through the drain pipe. All you have working for yourself in that situation is gravity.

Amish use solar for the well to feed the house and here they can't use a holding tank for water - they have to use an insulated bladder tank.

Let me look up a phone number for one of the solar companies that services the Amish community. I'll be back.

Try calling these guys. https://sesindiana.com/ They open 9am Eastern time M-F. They are in the middle of Amish country, so if they can't help I am sure that they can point you in the right direction. You WILL need batteries to keep the water flowing at night. To get the water from the pond, you might think about putting two or three lengths of well screen together and covering it with sand on the bottom of the pond. That way the junk in the pond won't enter your system. I suspect you will need to have a smallish enclosure by the pond for the pump and batteries. At least for the batteries. Maybe you can get a submersible pump that can run laying on it's side. I know the submersible pumps for water features need to be orientated vertically in the water.

I'll give them a look. Thanks!