Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations HSB Grow-out Failure

On April 1 of this year I stocked fifty (50) 4 to 6 inch HSB in a grow-out pond to evaluate the feasibility of getting them to 8 inches and above the main predator threshold.

Today, I drained the grow-out pond anticipating the transfer of the HSB and to prepare the pond for a new role as a great Kid's pond beginning this fall.

Result: complete failure of HSB. Not a one was found, not a single fish. It has been very dry here as most places this summer and of course very hot. The surprising thing was that there was no evidence of a fish kill along the way.

Fortunately, 50 other HSB went into the main pond where I can see them trying to fight there way into the feed with the much larger HSB many of which are now approaching 4 pounds...so the growing season was not lost, in fact, was normal as 50 is the normal stocking number for me spring and fall.

Live and learn, however in this case I didn't learn what happened to them, only that the grow-out effort was a complete failure.

I suspect high temps were their undoing, but will be interested to hear other theories.

The good news is the Kid's pond is now a big step closer. After a drying period, I will push the muck out and be ready to stock by early fall.
Bring on the Rio Grande's!

How big was the growout pond, ML?

ML,

Ditto, why did the hot temps hits them in one pond but not the other?

Gator

ML :

Sorry to hear about the HSB in the growout pond. I hope you can determine what happened. Did you monitor the water temps. vs those in the big pond. I know many were in hopes that it might work . I know you will like the kids pond which is a great idea. ewest

It may be that the shallow water in the grow-out pond just got too hot. It was actually more shallow than I realized...the pond must be 60 years old if its a day. Muck and the dry summer had reduced the depth to an estimated 3 to 4 feet instead of the 6 to 8 feet I thought it was. I'm guessing that the shallow water just got too hot for them.

The pond is about 1/4 acre in size. I checked the temps in the big pond regularly, but did not check the grow-out pond. Sure wish I had done that now cause I think it would tell the story.

Three or four feet of water in this climate was bound to be well into the 80's and my guess would be approaching 90 during the heat of the day. There was no place to hide, no deep water sanctuary.

It's amazing I thought I knew that pond having fished it a lot in years past, but it was just much more shallow than I thought. The muck was unbelievable. It will take a month for it to dry out to where I can push it out of the pond. But, it will be a great Kid's pond soon with gravel beds for the Rio Grande's and CNBG and female F1's...I think I will call this pond the Phoenix.

EWEST: Remember me telling you about adding on about 1/2 acre to my big pond? I was thinking of making that an attached forage pond until last Saturday when Bob convinced me that it probably wouldn't work. Anyhow, we dug out the area with a track-hoe moving out about 3000 yards of material in one hell of a day. I asked you about whether to open it up to the big pond or wait for rains and we both thought I should wait for rains...well Nature had other plans...while walking out by the pond after dinner tonight I heard this rushing sound, the unmistakable sound of rushing water. A sandy area had given way and the whole thing was quickly filled up with water from the main pond. I didn't even have time to get any structure in there. Man it filled fast and in spite of being 6 feet deep and about 1/2 acre only lowered the main pond about 6 inches. What a day...you just can't beat the sights and sounds of the track-hoe throwing that dirt around. A really fun day.

ML :

I am glad that addition worked Also thankful that you or trackhoe were not standing on dividing ground when it gave way. That would have been a real swim for life. With all that mixing watch your DO's . You can do the structure and bed work with water in the new part. It will be more work but I do it all the time . ewest

ps: you can still make it ,or part of it, a grow out pond by using a blocking net if you want to . That is what I do . Clear an area drop the net, put in the fish and turn on the feeder.

Sorry to here about your grow out pond. One product I use often is a wireless fish finder. Humminbird makes one called the smart cast. Just cast out the wireless sonar link and you can read depth and see fish. This can be done from the bank. The new models do water temp also.

I still plan to do a grow out cage. Will keep posted.

I'll tell you what strikes me as really strange. I've obviously been through this kind of thing before. When fish die in my ponds I count them and subtract from the original known number. Different fish have different "ratios". For every bluegill that I find, three end up missing in the final analysis. Because of this, every time a bluegill is found dead on the shore I have two numbers I keep track of. First number is how many fish should remain by doing simple subtraction, the other number is how many fish I probably actually have. Now here's the weird part. HSB typically have almost a 1:1 ratio for me. I've always assumed that because of their light color and bigger size that I'm accounting for nearly every one. I guess I don't really know how big your HSB were to begin with. If you lost them really early when they were quite small I can see how maybe they vanished. But if they had any size at all how do you think you could have lost all of them without seeing any dead? Maybe your raccoons are more ambitious then mine.

ML:
Sorry to hear you lost 'em (literally). I bet your TX water temps in the grow-out pond hit 90 deg. I have had 3' depth temps hit 85 deg here up North in a pond 9 feet deep.

Bruce:
The "Data King" title we might contest - the title "Extrapolation King" is all yours.

Tentmaker Farm,

I've seen those bank fishfinders and figured they didn't work. I'm most appreciative of your comments on them and will proceed to acquire one for my "tool" set. Thanks.

Bruce,

Aggressive would not begin to describe the Coons of East Texas. Last year when hundreds maybe thousands of winter killed Tilapia littered the shoreline of this predatorless small pond, within a week they were gone. It isn't surprising that a few HSB would disappear to this Army of Banditas. Everything is bigger in Texas, including Nature's cleanup crew.

ML, Sorry to hear about your loss in grow-out pond.
My grow-out experiment is still in progress,

The fact of the matter is that 4-6 inch HSB stocked late winter/early spring are near one year old stunted fish, held in crowded conditions, with meager feeding.- not optimum conditions for an experiment.

I have not been optimistic throughout the project, having found a number of dead fish on the bank the morning after stocking. I have no idea at this time as to survival rate but will soon begin transferring to main pond by hook and line capture.

The � acre 14 ft deep pond was less than one year old with an abundant population of fathead minnows. No feeding activity was observed until all fatheads disappeared early summer, when suddenly they began feeding on high protein pellets.
I was unable to observe daytime summer water temps, but recent early morning near surface temps have ranged in the low 80�s.

We have fed sparsely during the summer, but hand feeding in early morning and have observed active feeding.

Early summer cast net transfer was a failure after first couple of throws yielded 6-8 inch HSB, and fish became too spooked to continue.

I recently used a �hook less� pellet fly and they readily took the bait so expect no problems in catching � I have not a clue as to how many remain.

I would recommend to anyone beginning a �grow-out� project that healthy fish be stocked in the fall.

As mentioned in previous posts, our grow-out pond will become a HSB/BG pond since adult HSB stockers will be available from Todd Overton in the future.

I have been advised:
�As few as 3 pair for maximum forage production potential, but
then you won't have many adults for sportfishing for awhile.
For good bluegill fishing AND fair recruitment of young,
stock up to 50 total.�

I will begin transfer of 50, 6-8 inch BG from main pond next week, where we have a surplus of large BG.

Sorry for the long post � I�ll follow up with final results and survival percentages.

George Glazener
N.E. Texas � and 2 acre ponds

Yeah, I think I remember ML's growout pond. If I were a bettin' man I'd say the pond encountered low DO and the evidence was cleaned up by raccoons. I seriously doubt that high temps are the direct cause of this fish loss. That pond is old and full of organic muck from many years of runoff.

Currently our HSB growout program is a success. We SHOULD have enough to meet everyone's needs, and size availability will of course increase as the fish grow. At the moment we have fish in the 4"-6" range....lots of 6" fish on feed. We'll harvest and grade these fish in fall, splitting the small ones from the large ones and filling orders for the larger fish.

We should have fish in the 1/2 lb range in late spring 2006. Would appreciate any feedback from interested parties so we can plan accordingly.

George,

I've read the above before and frankly I'm really not interested in stocking stunted fish. I am willing to take the risks associated with predation and in fact have experienced good results in that regard, but I'm not especially fond of the idea of stocking stunted fish.

Perhaps your statement is true of most fish we purchase from fish "resellers" as opposed to fish growers who raise them from egg spawned fish...in the case of HSB, however there are only a limited source of the crosses.

I'd appreciate an explaination from Todd or anyone in the business regarding exactly what we purchase when we buy fish. Are we routinely buying stunted overcrowed fish from those who "resell" fish?

To some extent, it may not matter as I've read that BG that have been starved will quickly return to normal growth aptterns, but I wonder if that is true with predators? At any rate, I'm not at all enamored with the idea of buying stunted fish.

Meadowlark, hate to hear of your loss. Anyone else wanting to do the same may need to feed them so they have an idea of what's going on and not be totaly shocked.
Were there tilapia left?

BrianH,

Yep, those Tilapia can live in anything. You should have taken me up on my free offer.

As a matter of fact, I was surprisedd to also see one grass carp which had been stocked three years ago and had been dining well apparently. Also, one LMB about three pounds which was apparently left over from a previous drought.

Regarding feeding, I don't believe that would have made any difference...if anything it would have hastened the demise of the HSB contributing to DO problems and ammonia buildup, with the high temps. I stopped feeding in early July.

I originally had intended to transfer these fish in early July. However, it was so dry that I decided to hold off draining and use the water for livestock. I went ahead this weekend because we are probably only a couple of weeks or so from the start of rains again...at least by past history.

The only surprise was that there wasn't a single one of the HSB left. I expected losses, especially leaving them in shallow water in July and August, but did expect some to survive.

If I ever do this again, and it isn't likely, I'll grow them out in the spawning area I recently created attached to the big pond. That way, water quality would not be an issue.

Even if they had survived, I wouldn't try growing them out again. That job is better left to those who have the tools to properly take care of the fish and can readily seine them out.

Consider that hatcheries need an ample supply of fingerlings almost year-round. To get larger fingerlings quicker we stock low numbers/acre. If we stock high numbers we maximize production capability in terms of numbers, which can later be spread out for a phase 2 or phase 3 production. Since fingerlings are sold by the head, why limit efficiency by stocking low numbers just to get fast growth. The hatchery still needs to make certain profit/acre of water.

For catfish, bluegill, and bass fingerlings purchased from a reseller in the fall, odds are fair that they are this year's fish. For fish purchased in the spring, these fish of same size are most certainly almost 1 year old.

There are benefits. 1 year old bluegill, even 1"-3" fish can spawn soon after stocking in the spring. Catfish fingerlings that are "held back" can grow faster and be more resistant to disease than new fingerlings.

Certainly do not stock bass fingerlings, I mean 2"-4" fish in the spring as they've lost a year of potential growth and that may affect maximum growth potential. The same is true when you buy adult bass, you have no way of knowing how old that fish is. It may be 4 years old and only weight 1lb. To grow trophy bass, make sure to stock new fingerlings, 2" fish in late may/early june is about right.

As for HSB fingerlings purchased in winter/spring, I am very serious about this, I doubt that their growth rate is affected unless they aren't on feed. All you sacrafice when buying HSB in spring is time that those fish could have been growing in your pond, which will definately affect maximum growth potential as these fish have relatively short lives.

Stunting is not a permanent condition or disease, just a condition too much competition, too little space, and/or too little food. Once stunted fish are stocked out they exhibit similar growth as natural stocks, but they have lost max growth potential.

All the fish on our farm are this year's fish, except some F1 bass and some coppernose that we are growing to adults.

I have been a "reseller" in the past and still buy some fish. Efforts of some farms to maintain a year-round supply of fingerlings is as much of an art as it is a science.

Thought I might chime in on this one, too. Big fish farms raise millions of fish, literally. It's not in their best interest to keep big numbers of fish over the long haul. Grow them, move them, cash the check, pay the feed bill and hired help. It's good business to move fish fast. They can't benefit by selling stunted fish. Reputation is critical to longevity in this business, as any business. Try as they might, the big fish farmers do their best to supply a steady market...mostly re-sellers. Most of the big fish farms sell to the smaller farms. Small farms, if they have much business at all, cannot keep up the pace of sales with their own fish, all year long. So, don't worry too much about buying "stunted" fish, except fingerling bass in the months of Jan-April. It's a common practice of fish farmers to get as much production as possible from their ponds, and that often means big numbers of small fish early spring through late fall.
Meadowlark, there are possibly three fundamental reasons you lost your hybrid striped bass. Personally, I suspect number three. One, mishandling in the beginning. If those fish were not handled delicately, hauled efficiently, tempered and introduced into the pond properly, they can die in less than a week. Two, "habitat" issues. (We talked about that at D/FW). Shallow, hot-tub hot bath water is not good for hybrid stripers. But, the most obvious one to me is a single, solitary, lonely, hungry three pound largemouth bass with a smug smile on his bucket-shaped face.

I absolutely guarantee that the ultimate problem wasn't dissolved oxygen. That grass carp is your dead giveaway. While common carp may be resistant to low DO for periods of time, grass carp are a different animal. I've seen time and again when DO drops in my ponds that grass carp are one of the earliest to stress, especially the big ones. YOY's and age-1 SBH are considerably more resistant to warm water conditions than age-2 and older. I don't think the heat was the problem.

...the 3-pound largemouth, if you looked real close, I'll bet he was laughing. And I'll bet he was a two-pounder this spring.

As a side note, I think Todd's points are well made. I haven't had problem with stunted fish from suppliers, but I AM a supplier of HSB and I know that because of the incredible genetic variability in YOY hybrid fish that, as the buyer, I'd rather get the first and second cull. Agressiveness, feed utilization, feed conversion and growth potential show more divergence in HSB that purebred fish by a long shot.

I admit that I did not see ML's remarks about the grass carp and bass before posting about my low DO suspicion, and hence have to take that one back. Bruce and Bob are right, low DO would have taken both that grass carp and the bass as well.

ML, Todd, I have not been to my place in a while, man it is dry and hot. First time I have seen a drop in water level. Moss was bad but fishing was pretty good early and late. Todd, do you know any one who traps beavers. I am going to have a big problem soon. I am right off 831 in Flo. Call me if you do. 800.593.1130.
Thank's
Bob

ML, sorry for the sad news.

So the grass carp is also the "canary in a coal mine" so to speak. Well at least as far as DO goes.

That seems to be one unique benefit to having grass carp.

The county extension agent in Centerville can help with a contact.

I spoke with a customer a few days ago, and although I haven't had personal experience with beaver problems, his advise was...:

Disturb the beaver dam sometime during the day, tear some of it down so that water will rush through and make noise. That evening be ready with firepower and red spotlight. You'll see them start to rebuild. You must shoot mom and dad beaver, and the young beavers will pack their bags.

I make no claims that this method actually works, just heard it from a customer.

I had no idea that LMB was in there..it wasn't supposed to be there...famous last words.

Imagine a grow-out pond with a LMB...in hind sight, that does look pretty dumb. I didn't even correlate the loss of fish to that one lone LMB until now.

So you guys think she/he may have cleaned out the HSB? Seems like at least one or more HSB would have survived but yes come to think of it that bass did have a smile crossing its lips.

p.s. Todd and Bob thanks a bunch for the discussion on stunted fish and reselling them. I'm not concerned any further about it, but do think the spring LMB thing is unfortunate because most folks do their initial stocking with LMB in the spring following fall stocking of the forage base. Sounds like they should avoid the Jan. through April fingerlings.

Bottom line...don't allow a fox in the hen house if you want to grow chickens.

ML :

I share your concern about getting bad fish. Not just stunted but either not what you asked for or bad genes from bad brood fish. I know Bob , Bruce and Overton are right about good reputable fish farms. I am not talking about those but remember Bob's DFW report on the free fish adds and the guy behind them. Those type folks are out there. My approach on this is like Bill Cody's on sorting and sexing his fish , he is going to double check before anything gets put in the pond. I am going to be sure that I know and trust the seller and know exactly who grew the fish and where and talk to them. I want the seller to have grown the fish . I want written confirmation on what I ordered and what they deliver and I want to see and examine the fish before they go in and I take pics. If I am buying adult fish I want their life history . I have heard of adult bass being shocked out of a stunted pond and being resold to unsuspecting buyers. The buyers did not know that those 12 in one pound bass were 5 years old. It only takes one time to set you back years on your pond plan. Not for me . ewest