Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Golden Shiners Pros/Cons

I've read a lot of articles and watched some videos with great discussion about golden shiners.

The RW of our bass is hitting around 90% which has forced me to cull some fish, but I want to take it a step further and boost my food chain. Here's what I gather:

Pros:
1.) diversify food chain
2.) slender profile easy to consume

Cons:
1.) nest raiders of bluegill
2.) parasite could inhibit spawning ability

For those with experience, what do you say?

Pond size and age?
Which size of LMB is over abundant - size structure?
What is in the pond?
Are you feeding and/or fertilizing?

GS can be a good choice under the right conditions.

Pond size and age?

2.5 acres - two years

Which size of LMB is over abundant - size structure?

It's a new pond. Largest bass so far is 1lb 15oz.

What is in the pond?

Bluegill, redear, largemouth native, largemouth F1

Are you feeding and/or fertilizing?

Feeding

You want to grow big bass? GS would likely be a plus.

You want to grow big BG? Don't stock GS.

Another good option for South Mississippi, instead of or in addition to using golden shiners for growing and or adding more forage for the pond,,, consider using threadfin shad with or without GSH. Good threadfin shad populations and GSH thrive on the pond having a good plankton community i.e. often fertilization organic or inorganic fertilizers are utilized that produce a high nitrogen to phoshorus ratio. Good nutrient increases of nitrogen and phosphorus can also come from adequate amounts of pellet feeding. Note good plankton develops best in ponds with alkalinity above 40 ppm and better if higher than 60-80ppm alkalinity. Know your alkalinity if wanting to create good plankton blooms.

To my knowledge threadfin shad do not have the disadvantages of:
1.) nest raiders of bluegill
2.) parasite could inhibit spawning ability

Threadfin shad do have their disadvantages. Do your due diligence of homework.

One thing to consider ... BG are nest raiders of BG. So, I am not sure if that nest raiding is a con that will make much difference.

It seems to be difficult for GSH to maintain high standing weights in the presence of LMB. Even so, per the references using GSH as the primary forage species there is substantial consumption of GSH by LMB that is reflected in the standing weights of LMB supported by them. They seem to have a high P/B ratio (production over biomass ratio) ... higher than BG. They are of high energy density and reproduce enough that they can build populous standing weights of consumable prey that support a remarkable standing weight of LMB for a limited period of time. Usually, within 2 or 3 years they are insufficient to maintain the elevated standing weights of LMB achieved. The LMB tend to overconsume them.

My approach to GSH will be to use them as a source of YOY sized prey that my pond(s) did not produce in sufficient number. IOWs, as a species for forage supplementation. By forage supplement, what I expressly mean is a supplement of consumable forage that I have no intention of reproducing. What I want the forage supplement to do ... is feed my predators ... grow before they are all consumed ...and produce a significantly greater weight of consumption than the weight of the supplement. Some will undoubtedly escape predation and reproduce. But whether that reproduction results in high numbers of GSH forage recruits of the size supplemented ... I think that is doubtful.

GSH have some advantages for forage supplementation (forage stocked for the strict purpose of consumption). They can be bought by the pound instead of individually. They don't croak in warm or cold water like RBT and TP do. If you have representation of LMB >20", it is unlikely that any GSH will grow large enough to prohibit their ultimate consumption. Even when they are a challenge to subdue when healthy, old age and sickness will render them consumable. They have a broader palette and can consume foods that are not of much if any use for BG. This can help with nutrient recycling and with the maintenance of higher weights of prey in consumable sizes. Additional niche is advantageous to increasing forage potential.

When I recommended GSH to you, in your other thread, I was specifically focused on boosting consumable prey for consumption over winter. Essentially increasing your Y/C ratio (consumable prey biomass over LMB biomass). If the LMB were to consume at satiation over winter, you may not have many left come May. But your LMB should be significantly larger if they were to have consumed them all. Eventually, the GSH standing weight of the forage supplement would decline to levels that they are not significantly contributing to consumption. They won't be a big factor then, but hopefully you have managed your BG to increase their consumed/consumable production within the limits of your pond's potential so as to lessen dependence on forage supplementation. Managing the LMB population to balance with this consumed/consumable production is also necessary.

How much the recommended supplement would provide and how long it will last would in part depend on how fast the individual GSH grow. The better they grow, the more weight of them can be consumed. Stocking them at the lower end of the optimum window of consumption allows for growth to improve them as more optimum prey. Ideally, growth proportionate (by weight) to the growth of LMB is the ideal growth once they reach optimum sizes. To ensure they grow, you do not want your water with excessively high weights of forage. They will grow faster if there remains potential above the standing weight maintained. The lower the standing weight relative to the potential, the faster the growth will be (as evidenced by new ponds which in the first year have much lower standing weights of forage than the potential). This is why I recommend removing BG larger than 1/3 the length of the largest LMB to balance the weight of the GSH supplemented. You are just swapping non-consumable forage with consumable forage. So, you haven't increased the standing weight of forage and the supplement has more potential to grow and supply more consumption to your LMB.

TFS populations work best as forage for LMB between 1 and 3 lbs. They establish best in waters that stay above 45 F+-. There are excellent threads on the forum about using and maintaining TFS as a forage source. If you are in central or south MS they are an option provided your pond keeps a bloom most of the year (see Bill's comments on pond productivity above). You can use both TFS and GSH in combination. Under normal circumstances (no overabundance of egg eater populations) I don't worry about the egg eating tendency of the fish present.

FYI
In Role of Male Parental Care in Survival of Larval Bluegills by Mark B. Bain and Louis A. Helfrich in Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 112: 47-52, 1983 were their findings about predation. Predation on larval bluegills was inhibited by nest-guarding male bluegills. The data implicated juvenile bluegills as the major predators on bluegill larvae, followed in importance by pumpkinseed. Bluegill (3-12 cm total length) were the most abundant nest predators. Pumpkinseed (7 -11 cm), largemouth bass (4- 5 cm), and whitefin shiners (5-6 cm) also were nest predators.

I think the higher the diversity of forage foods in a water body the better the quality of the fishery will become. Two good things that improves the survival of GSH broodstock are more types of refugia habitat for the adults and ample spawning habit. Refuge: haven, sanctuary, protection, food availability and shelter

Without proper spawning habitat and refuge habitat, they will need to be stocked annually. They don't have a rolling spawn like BG, so if the correct habitat isn't there for them, they won't pull off a successful spawn. In a 1 acre pond, without correct habitat for them, I have stocked 200 adult GSH and they did not establish in the pond, There were none observed a year later. These were fish that were between 9" and 11" in length.

In a customers pond that has the proper habitat for them to reproduce (but no LMB, only HSB, SMB BG and YP as predators for the first 4-5 years, now there are HBC in there that are doing exceptionally well) they are doing VERY well. So well that he catches and removes a few hundred adults in the winter when ice fishing. The HSB and Hybrid Crappie are doing exceptionally well in his pond due to having forage fish in the area of the pond that they occupy. The SMB, after the introduction of Northern SMB vs the Neosho SMB that were in there, are doing very good too.

We stocked the same amount of FHM and GHS initially. . There is habitat for both to reproduce. After year 3, there were no more FHM to be found.

Have a question, would it be better to buy 250,000 fry or 1300 2.5 inch shinners to put in a 60 acer lake. Cost the same. Just trying not to spend to much. Lake over 10 years old with large bass and bluegill already in it. At one time was over run with bullheads, but they are almost gone now. Just want to know if the fry would be eaten before they would be old enough to reproduce. Limited amount of money to spend for bait. Was looking at shad but here in NE we have lot of lakes over run with shad and need to start over. So not wanting to try them, but they are open water bait and I like that idea. Would gsh eat carp eggs or small carp fry?

IMO whichever size of the stocking GSH, I would do it in the spring as soon as possible just prior to the lake reaching 65F and then the GSH spawning temperature of 70F. At that temperature the lake will / should have a phytoplankton / rotifer density to feed the fry and also larger zooplankton to feed 2"-3" GSH. Has the lake water ever been quantitatively analyzed for zooplankton in Spring to see if there is adequate foods to grow GSH fry?

For 60 acres of water, a good option IMO would be to stock both fry and young shiners and then several orders sequentially from the Fish Farm of each grouping to help insure better chance of survival. For that large of a water body,,, I would be getting some GSH fry every 2-3 weeks or monthly as long as they are available. GSH will spawn several times (4-5) each summer, thus it would be very wise to stock the fry 2 to 4 times during the late spring, early summer as this increases their chance of surviving in the lake. The zooplankton populations may not be adequate as foods for good fry survival during the just one stocking of fry. IMO cut your losses by making AT LEAST two stockings of GSH fry. Having and managing 60 acres of water is not a cheap endeavor. It is big water requiring significant dollars. When going big,,,, be prepared to pay big. With GSH,,, do diligent homework to insure good spawning habitat is available for GSH brooders that manage to survive. You may need to buy some spawning mats to provide optimum spawning sites. Learn how the fish farms do it.


If I had a 60 acre body of water to work with, I would be building one or two small 0.25 to 1 acre forage ponds or renting one to grow the needed fish stocking supplements. Or be prepared to pay $,$$$$ for the needed forages.

If your 60 acres of water is in need of more forage or it has a forage shortage, it is very possible that the lake already has too many predators or the goals for the lake are unrealistic. Too many predators can easily overeat the produced forages of what the lake can naturally produce thus more forage is needed to keep up with the production or recruitment of too many annual new predators. Are the anglers doing due diligence to remove the proper number of smaller predators? This could mean for 60 acres 1,200 smaller LMB be removed per year. Or does the lake have the correct predator numbers and or species to effectively prey on or eat the smaller predators to keep them in proper number balance for the goals??? Again -- Why is there a shortage of forages and does it have too many of the wrong size/s of predators.?? Know the proper number of existing predators for the correct balance of predators needed to match the natural productivity of the lake ecosystem. Having too many carp causing too much turbidity that reduces natural productivity, that results in less fish production per each acre. This means fewer pounds of fish can be produced per acre. Ideally the fishery capacity or standing crop should match the water's abiltiy to produce. Having too many cattle or grazers per acre in a pasture means the need for more forages and or added feed supplements to keep the cattle producing to their ability.


IMO 60 Acres should be receiving regular pro-fish electroshocking episodes to ROUTINELY determine the fishery balance to help the owner/s manage it for achieving the fishery goals for the lake. Again – Owning a 60 acre lake requires spending big dollars if achieving the desired goals are really important. When going big,,,, be prepared to pay big. In my many years, I’ve learned that managing a 1/3 acre pond is a lot cheaper in time and money than managing a 1-2 acre pond. Bigger almost always requires more.



I don't think GSH would eat significant numbers of carp eggs nor carp fry mainly because carp eggs are very adhesive and stick pretty tightly to the surface where they are laid or deposited. GSH do not feed by eating stuff off of surfaces such as periphyton and things associated with it such as carp eggs. As I know it,,,,, carp fry are mostly benthic in nature or living among dense structure and do not inhabit the same areas as GSH fry i.e. open water. Do your AI homework on this topic to verify my opinions.

Goal for lake is to be able to catch 3 to 5 lb bass and crappie bigger than 10 inches. Bass are doing very well and so are the bluegill. Just want to stay ahead of the game with forage, do to all the bullheads disappearing. There are crappie in there but most are only 7 to 8 inches. With 1 to 5 larger in the 16 to 20 inch size caught per year. Only 2 families own the lake and most family members don't care or want to put a lot of money in fish for the lake. The bass are fat, need to weigh them and measure them. There have been some 7 to 8 lb fish caught but not measurered. I don't know if I need more bait fish but was looking for something that would be in open water for crappie. There is plenty of habitat in the lake cattails, arrowhead and rush plants. Also 40 acres of standing timber when flooded. This spring the bloom was maybe to good, 10 to 12 inchs of visability. The water stays green till late summer heat.

nehunter,

You and your neighbor are blessed with a good amount of water. The crappie you describe ... reminds me a lot of municipal lake I once had a lot and dock on. The lake had a good population of white crappie and they also were concentrated in sizes around 7-9 inches in length. It was much rarer for us to catch crappie above 10" and the largest I have ever seen come from the water was about 17". My Dad caught that one. Created quite a stir ... LOL! It's a good memory. Everyone who enjoyed fishing and who had a dock on the lake ... enjoyed the crappie. The approach to them ... because of the predominant size ... was to fish for them as panfish. 7-8" is a good size for fileting and I have no idea how many I have caught and consumed but I know it must exceed more than 2000 of them. A lighted dock in the summer-time with brush in front could provide good fishing at night throughout the summer. Also, for about 6 weeks leading into the spawn, they would be in the brush in front of the dock. I'd hang up some but it would really hold them until they moved out to spawn. I don't think they used the brush much in the Summer. I think because the lake stratified. But light will bring them close to the dock at night and I would get bites on the drop before the jig would reach brush. I'd do a count and then retrieve in case the bite didn't happen. Daytime, I would troll for them and then concentrate effort where I encounterd them. I just slowly trolled 1/8 oz jigs with plastics. The smallest sassy shad or red or black tubes with chartreuse tails worked very well.

Anyways, I read somewhere that the reason crappie tend to stall around 8" is that they are not getting enough small fish prey. Several sources document that this is the size they transition to piscivory. Another source described the predominant relative length prey of crappie to be around 14% of the length of the crappie. So, a 16" CP would be consuming fish around 2.24" in length. I think a good minnow for small crappie is Red Shiner and they are native in Nebraska. The rub is, you may already have them. They are very common in OK and are an important source of small prey for small predatory fish. Probably the same for the larger Nebraska impoundments. The best source for them would be Snipe or possibly TJ. You might check to see if they could supply some. They breed like rabbits all summer. Very hardy fish that survives in predator rich water (eg Lake Texoma) where it was reported to be the most abundant minnow. They don't get large and would benefit Crappie more than LMB. Worth considering if you do not have them already.

We used to think our huge emergences of hexagenia mayfly were important to crappie in our municipal lake. They won't grow large on mayflies, but water with shading to bottom is good habitat for them and they could be a good addition if they are not there already. You'll see their molts floating on the water on June mornings if you have them in abundance. I once shared a collection technique for eggs on the forum. If you are interested in trying to establish them, look for that or reach out by PM and I will share how they can be collected.

All the folks catching Crappie in our municipal lake were not enough exploitation to get the upper hand on the population. I know we affected the size to some extent but as they grew (largest I ever saw the average was around 9" with an enjoyable amount up to 10-11") there would be another bumper crop of juveniles. I guess what I am saying is ... it may be difficult to control their numbers sufficiently to grow very many to the larger lengths in a BOW of that size. It will affect other fish, but seems like Snipe said that KS has had good results adding SAE where eventually better sized crappie are caught. You do catch large crappie already ... so I don't know ... but reach out to TJ and Snipe if you are interested to see if they have any advanced fingerlings remaining.

I think I will buy larger shiners next spring. So they don't get eaten before they grow up, by the smaller crappie. I do have a few small ponds with nothing in them, so I can put some in there to grow and then transfer them to the lake.

When ordering the larger shiners consider buying a box of GSH fry and add them to your small production pond/s for grow out. Please return to update us on the progress of the survival of shiners in the lake and how well the fry grew in the small pond/s. For the small shiner pond be sure the spawning habitat is the proper type. Maybe add a dozen of the larger shiners from the shipment to the small pond for some quick reproduction in 2026.

Ok, bit the bullet today and stocked 3,000 golden shiners in the pond. They ranged from 3-5 inches.
Had about a 45 minute drive from the hatchery and lost less than twenty so that was good.

They weren't cheap at thirteen cents apiece, so I'm hoping some make it to spawn next spring. Time will tell if this was a good investment or an expensive snack.

Question - Why did you stock the golden shiners in Fall instead of in Spring when more spawning would likely occur in Spring instead of Fall due to more surviving GSH?

I'm in a state of imbalance right now. RW showed that bass needed culling and forage needed increasing. Will sample again in February.

I'd tell a customer to cull first, THEN add the shiners. Why feed any of the bass that you are going to cull?

How many pounds of minnows did you stock? I am sure that they didn't individually count the minnows. 20's are 50 fish per pound, 30's are 26 fish per pound.

Yes that's correct.

Always habituate new fish subject to predation. It greatly increases the survival rate.