Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Crappie day

Look who showed up in my cast net. I've actually caught at few before in the net before but had just assumed they were light colored, skinny bluegill.

Given that they were all the same size and I've never seen an adult, I'm guessing one of the neighbors added them recently. Without telling anyone.

Great, thanks.

I guess the moral of this story is that if you share a pond with neighbors you should communicate more and better. Sigh. Probably should cool off before asking about it.

What's rotenone going for these days?

It's not priced like it was 5 years ago!

Rotenone

Great---if I want anything done I'll probably have to pay for it myself.

I almost think crappie might have been here all along as I can't see any of the neighbors paying for the fish themselves.

rlb3,

Noticed your signature says "grower of champion bullheads". Are you referring to this pond with the crappie. Anyways, tell us more of story. You've moved to a new house with a subdivision pond? How large is the pond? Other species present? No LMB so far in your samples?

Regarding the white crappie, that very well may be the thinnest I have yet to see. It's lacking height and looks razor thin too. Hopefully you can nuke the pond with the help of neighbors but if nuking the pond cannot be done because of the neighbors ... there still may be hope with the right number of large (>17") LMB. It's loaded with forage and so long as there are predators large enough to consume them ... the pond could still grow a few dandy LMB and (eventually modestly larger WCP).

I’ve been trying for ten years to get the BCP to take hold but so far the bass are winning…. Can’t win for losing sometimes

Looks a lot like forage for the right sized predator.

I managed to kill most of my bigger bass last year when killing weeds.

Noticed the crop of smaller BCP this year was much bigger - think the bass had been keeping them somewhat in check.

Wasn't being (completely) serious about nuking the pond.

Ok so:

Pond is > 70 years old but it was drained and refilled in the late '80s. 5 acres. Shallow (4-5' max depth, average probably 2.5). Very fertile. Opaque water. No aquatic plants to speak of.

I've been here 4-5 years. Neighbors longer. 5 of them. Had some trouble with the drain and it's been going down about 8-12" in the summer. That coupled with some unfortunate over harvesting of bluegill since I started feeding them (not by me and I put a stop to it) has led to runaway golden shiners. I think one of my neighbors put the crappie in to try to deal with them. He apparently said something to another neighbor about taking care of the minnows a while back. At the time I thought he meant he was going to try to catch them with hook and line.

I've pulled hundreds of LMB over the last few years. I'd call them ok good for a pond that's not managed well. Biggest was maybe 6-7lbs. Growth is probably limited by poor visibility in the water as there is no shortage of large shiners. There may not be a lot of tiny fish, though. It's hard for me to tell.

I feed two or three bags a month. Naturally no one chips in.

The signature---the state record for yellow bullhead is < 3lbs. I guess no one cares enough to go through the trouble of certifying them. I've caught probably a dozen bigger than that. Not that a 3.5lb bullhead is *that* big; it's more of a joke since bullheads are undesirable. Someone here pointed out I should have let of my kids certify the fish and claim the record. Maybe I will if I get another one. Think I am pretty close to having removed all of the big bullheads removed. Really getting sick of eating old bullheads. There don't seem to be a lot of intermediate size bullheads. Lots of tiny ones though. Hopefully killing off the adults with crash their population.

I got lazy and started cast netting to get rid of some surplus small bass and overgrown minnows, and that's how I found the crappie. Never caught one on a hook and line but I've never had trouble catching crappie when going for bass in other places. I've also done a bit of jigging and never seen a crappie. So I think they're new.

This seems like a good reason to hurry up and build some artificial habitat and try out that green light I bought a while back. Otherwise I guess the plan is to wait and see. I still plan to do the normal bass harvest.

LMB will eat GSH anywhere from 1/4 to up to about 1/2 their body length. Too many GSH? Leave the LMB grow but I'd get a bump board and a digital scale. Keep track of the LMB Relative weight, and if any age class (say fish that are within 2" of each other) are less than 100% Relative Weight, I'd concentrate on removing that size LMB. LMB eat a LOT of GSH.

It might that the genetics aren't the best to get LMB over that 6-7 pound size. Those LMB need fish to eat that are 1/4-1/3 their body length, so maybe the correct size forage fish aren't available in large numbers to get them to grow larger too. Look in the Common Pond Q&A (archives) section for the relative weight charts. If there is plenty of forage to grow the LMB bigger than the 6-7 pounders that you've been catching, then maybe stock some F1's or Florida LMB. Fin clip them to ID them. Make it known that the fin clipped fish are special and that if they want larger LMB do C&R on those.

Appreciate the input. I will try to get some hard numbers on the relative weights. They appear to be on the skinnier side in all sizes.

I'm really not removing a lot of bass---maybe 5-10lbs per acre per year. I don't think anyone is. I try to keep the little ones (under 12") and (rarely) really skinny older fish (big mouth relative to body). The shiners are there---they just aren't getting eaten. I blame the opaque water but I think genetics are part of it too. The game fish were stocked a long time ago and they're very wary. Bluegill avoid the shore and the docks, I guess because of birds. They don't feed like I see on youtube and it takes them a long time to clean up. They'll sometimes let feed go to waste if the wind is blowing the wrong way. I think the shiners are eating most of the food I put in.

The wariness isn't because I've been throwing the net; they've always been like that. I've been very careful not to net places I want fish to hang out. Doesn't seem to make a difference as I keep catching them.

Maybe I'll stock some larger fish with better genetics. Hate to spend the money if the crappie end up ruining things anyway, though.

re: Bluegills and feed. You must feed the same time of day, in the same place in the pond EVERY DAY or the fish won't realize it's there. Also, the feed must taste good to the fish. Endurance Feed, Purina MCP or Purina Aquamax, Triton (cargill), Skretting. The cheap stuff from TSC or the feed store wont do. If you see fish picking up a pellet and spitting it back out, then use a different feed.

Bass need cover to hang out in and ambush forage fish from. 20% of the surface area of the pond should be cover for the bass to hang out in. They won't grow if they are marathon runners swimming all the time. 20 pounds per acre per year is what should be removed for a balanced pond providing there is ample places for the bass to spawn and there is ample cover for them to hide in. If it's bass are stunted, then 30+ pounds per acre for the first year, then re-assess towards the end of the 2nd year.

The stuff I've been feeding is 35% protein with small pellets. 2.5% fat, 6.5% fiber. Probably not worth the 50% premium over the 32% the local coop stocks (which is sometimes but not always a small pellet too).

Aquamax is hard to come by around here at acceptable prices but I might pony up for some at tractor supply. I fed some before it doubled in price and it did seem to do a better job of drawing the fish in. Maybe I'll get a few bags and see if it jump starts them.

I plan to extend my dock out another 16 feet and wrap some fishing line around the perimeter to keep birds from jumping off it onto my poor fish. I'm also making some artificial habitat for small fish to put under it which I think is pretty neat. I may post it after I get a few prototypes made. Thanks again for your help!

I haven’t done much with comparative shopping on prices but I did buy some MVP from the local coop. They don’t stock it per se but they did bring in 20 bags of MVP for me this year for much less than I could order it from TS.

Another option would be to find another pond owner thats close and sprit a pallet of food between you. I think the most popular brands I’ve seen on the forum are MVP, and endurance (previously Optimal). I’m sure that there are some that have used or are currently using one of the other quality brands as well.

One other thing to consider would be how well the fish can convert cheap food vs quality to flesh. If the cheap food just turns to fish poo…is it really better?

Fished a beetle spin and caught 6 LMB in about 2 hours, 2 small (8-10 inches), 3 in the 12-14" range, 1 that was a pound and a half or so. It seemed that the smaller ones had better relative weights (but I didn't compute them). No crappie.

Threw the cast net about 20 times in various parts of the pond I don't usually cast net. 0 LMB, 3 bluegill, 3 crappie (3-5 inches, all near where I caught the last one), > 100 golden shiners including some that were 8" long and heavy bodied.

The best looking fish that come out of this pond are minnows and bullheads...

Well there's some more cover. Just fell over. Seems to be still alive too. Wonder how long it'll last.

There is a lot going on in your pond, obviously. Just to share some thoughts ...

There has been absolutely no mention of good populations of YOY. Without good overwinter survival of these sizes of forage, there will not be adequate forage for preferred sizes of LMB (> 15"). You need a really good census of the fish populations ... so that it can be understood what is there and also need to be able to make reliable estimates of the biomass that the lake is supporting. (I am going to guess in the neighborhood of 500 - 700 lbs to the acre given its age ... possibly more). The problem is not food. It's the populations and how they are interacting to produce consumable forage and the competition for this consumable forage. While we would say the pond is "out of balance" ... the truth is ... the pond has a unique balance. All the working parts are balanced with the foods the pond is producing and the population structure reflects the balance. Is it the best balance? No, you would like to improve growth rates and the ultimate sizes of the LMB. That circumstance, also has its own unique balance (balanced with growth and standing weight as it relates to the production of ... and maintenance of consumable forage). To achieve that balance requires having the right number and sizes of LMB AND the right biomass of brood forage. The biomass of brood forage should be restricted enough so that the production potential remaining for consumable forage is sufficient to support the goaled biomass of LMB. The population of LMB should be restricted enough so that average weight of LMB is about 1/2 the weight of the goaled ultimate weight. That's a unique balance but only one of 1000's of possible balances that can happen naturally without your intervention. Your place in this, to achieve goals, is to manage biomass and populations for the unique balance that will accomplish the desired goals. It's a lot of work ... which is why I suggested killing it out and starting over as the best option.

Things that are not going to work to find that balance are:

Supplementing BG
Adding feed to boost the pond's already robust fertility.
Supplementing forage without removing brood forage.
Adding structure and habitat
Sequestering nutrients
Anything else other than seines that would be a glorious waste of money. (the problem is entirely related to the balance of LMB and the production of consumable prey)

To be sure, its not that those other things don't boost carrying capacity or even accomplish some of the things they are claimed to do ... it's just that they are not the answer to population and biomass imbalances. They will NEVER fix that type of problem. Only adjusting biomass and populations can fix biomass and population imbalances. These things will work:

Removing Bullheads
Removing too large to consume GSH
Removing all but a select number of LMB >12" in length

To work best, you need to remove the right number of LMB, all the bullheads that can be removed, and enough too large to consume GSH so that YOY going into winter have a biomass no less than 2 times the biomass of targeted LMB biomass. If the pond had no GSH, I would have had BG in place of the GSH but you seem to have representation of GSH nearly 30 fold the BG per the cast net survey. I wouldn't put any effort into controling BG numbers given that GSH is substantially dominant forage species in the pond.

The density of LMB in the pond can be estimated from the catch rate. At 2.5 LMB/hour, I estimate 77 LMB/acre. This is too many to have great growth into preferred length (>15"). If the pond has developed less vulnerability to angling since it's 1980's era restoration, then the density of LMB could be underestimated. The rate used for the population estimate is from a parent population of a study that investigated the heritable trait of vulnerability to angling. When it comes to LMB, one needs to have positive ID and marking of the population that is reserved for growth. You want to limit the population > 12" to only these fish and any fish > 12" that is not marked should be removed so as to not compete with them.

Forage locking is a gradual thing and it happens in all ponds to varying degrees ... it is a spectrum. It's a natural thing for forage fish to grow to weights that are either not consumable or that are difficult to consume. As the biomass of these large forage fish grow ... there is less production of consumable forage due to cannibalism and competition. Lowering the biomass of brood forage reduces cannibalism and competition increasing the consumable forage available to predators like LMB. The key is the right balance of brood, consumable forage, and LMB. You haven't described the population structure of the GSH ... but the description of the fishing and density of the LMB tell the story. There are abundant GSH that are larger than 4.5" and few GSH in the 2"-4" range. How do I know that? Because if you had an abundance of 2"-4" GSH ... enough that they could supply all the growth need of 13" fish they would be growing faster and have high RW. If the GSH are an average length of 6" ... That is JUST PERFECT for 24" 9LB LMB. But that's the problem. If you had 9 LB LMB, they would not be so numerous (because BIG LMB would be thinning these sizes down). 13" LMB are not growing to 9 LBS because 6" average length forage is just too dang big. They NEED 2"-4" forage and they are removing most of this size forage just to maintain their weight and grow slowly.

So you have my two cents. If you can start over, it will be easy for a 2 to 3 years and fishing good for a minimum of 3 to 5 years. But somewhere in that 3 to 5 year time frame you will be forced to manage populations and biomass or you will lose the big fish and return to the state the BOW is currently in. I'd argue that the current state isn't all that bad, 2.5 LMB/hr is a good catch rate (needs to be lowered to grow bigger fish) and 77 LMB/acre is a population that you can manage down. The estimated weight of LMB is around 61 lbs/acre if the recent trip is reflective of the population. the pond could support a greater standing weight of LMB if you reduced brood forage biomass (which would increase the biomass produced of consumable forage). I think you have something to work with if a plan can be organized that is consistently employed by all that are party to the pond.

jpsdad thank you for that post. I know it took a long time to type out and I appreciate it. If it was up to me I'd nuke the pond and start over. But most of my neighbors are older and I don't think they'd go for it.

I think you're right about the population structure of the GSH. The median size that I catch is about 4". Rarely if ever see bait store-sized GSH. Minnow traps only catch small BG.

One of my goals is shift that forage biomass from GSH to BG, just because BG are more fun for kids. If the overgrown forage were bluegill I would be a lot happier with it. There were a lot more larger bluegill the first few years I was here, but I think they were overharvested after I started feeding them (not by me). I could have stopped it (and I have), but at the time I thought it would be fine to remove the older bluegill. Unfortunately the population of catchable ones does not seem to have recovered.

So as far as a plan goes, here's mine:

Remove all bullheads and predatory turtles.

Put in some crappie attractors and remove as many of them as I can.

Remove all smaller bass I can catch. As far as marking larger ones---I just don't think I fish enough to mark a keeper population so I'll continue removing the ones that look skinny or old relative to their size (big head/mouth).

Add some cover for small BG.

Seine/cast net GSH and clip fins and release. Chop up the biggest ones and toss them back into the pond.

Maybe (?) stock some intermediate-sized coppernose BG with better genetics or grow some in a cage to an intermediate size before releasing.

Edit: and shift the keeper "small" bass size up a bit until I stop getting so many in the 13-14" size. And be more aggressive in removing the "skinny" bigger ones.

You're welcome rlb3. Thank you for reminding me about the crappie. FWIW. I think all actions you have taken in terms of harvesting LMB is making a difference. IOWs the situation and average sizes of LMB would be different (lower weight and RW) than if you weren't making those efforts. Anything you do above those efforts (removing more of them) will contribute to LMB growth.

I have a few questions about the BG and the GSH. When you first moved there 5 years ago ... were there GSH in the pond? When did you notice the GSH were problematic as an overabundant species?

When there were good populations of BG, was the bloom as intense as it now? Did you have more weeds growing then?

Yes there were GSH from the get-go. I'd occasionally catch big ones when going for BG. Didn't do much netting until the last year or so but one of my neighbors would occasionally castnet for bait, and he'd get a lot more BG and fewer shiners than I am now.

Mostly I've just noticed that BG aren't as numerous. Less confident that the shiners have increased recently but it sure seems that way.

The pond level has been dropping a foot or so during the summer for the last few years due to drain problems, which (I hope) are fixed now for good (thanks to me and a shovel and 50 bags of concrete). It's already pretty shallow and I think that may have helped the shiners.

The bloom has always been like that. If anything the bad stuff (cyanobacteria, duckweed, etc) has been better in recent years. Very little of it this year. Part of it is that I've stopped using fertilizer in the yard and encouraged the neighbors to do the same. No larger plants to speak of except the stuff that grows right along the edge in shallow water.

OK. Was just trying to understand how the GSH came to apparently dominate the biomass. I would normally expect them to be a more minor component second to BG. I do wonder if there are conditions that are moving the environment to be more favorable to GSH. I've read that GSH are tolerant of low DO. Don't know if something along those lines is helping GSH relative BG. I mention this because it could be difficult to fight a trend like that. It seems possible that some environmental factors are shaping this unwanted BG-GSH dynamic the pond is facing.

At the very least, GSH are very good forage with good energy density. Being soft rayed, they are little more pleasant to swallow whole. Presently, they seem to be supporting a very respectable standing weight of LMB. Anyways, good luck on this project!

I think it was the summer draw downs and the overharvesting of bluegill. When they were at a higher density they were very easy to catch by the fish feeder at dusk, and I freely let people do it. It started with neighborhood kids and ended with a couple adult men who would come every other day with multiple rods camped out over the feeder. Circling back to the original post when they came back this spring I talked to the neighbor who knew them and it turned out he was looking for an excuse to disinvite them. The moral of the story continues to be to just talk to people.

We had a big rain last night (2" rain = 10" of rise to the pond) and my DIY spillway seems to be holding with just a few little leaks between the blocks. So hopefully the drain issues are fixed. I do think the water dropping was hurting the bluegill spawns more than the minnows.

It actually goes down about 18" below the water level with a few deeper footers (where I found soft spots from crawfish holes). Has 40' of rebar in it. Lined the hole with bentonite before pouring concrete. I would have liked to have used 2x as much concrete but it was just me and a bucket and a shovel and I had to build it fast in anticipation of another storm that turned out to be a dud.

Your neighbors are fortunate to have you as a neighbor. You've been, and are, an exceptionally good one.

The behavior of the guests at the feeder is unconscionable. I too have seen a lot of bad behavior at shared pond(s). It's discouraging. One has to roll with the punches and communicate as you have. Good luck as the journey continues, rlb3.

Update: the crappie are new. One of the neighborhood kids apparently put some adults in at an unspecified time in the recent past. I finally caught one on a jig, too, but it's obviously second generation.

So there goes the hope that they were there all along or that they were hybrids stocked by someone with (some) sense.

I guess we'll see how it goes (they don't exactly seem to be thriving), but I'll start saving pennies for a barrel of rotenone.

I’ve recently had to deal with an issue like that. My 133 acre place has 3 ponds and is heavily wooded. Many years ago I wound up with a kid that was a friend of my grandsons. No problem. He is now grown, married and I now have a new woman hunting and fishing. No big deal and she is a sweetheart.

I, that couple, and my grandson hunt and fish the 133 acres. My wife and other family don’t hunt.

He recently decided to bring his cousin to fish. No big deal. Now, he has decided to invite the cousin to deer hunt. I told him no. We already have too many hunting. I also told him that there will be no more early bow season hunting. They kill good bucks every bow season. Then, when I hunt, I seldom even see a legal buck. I haven’t shot a buck in years.

I also told him that no friends, relatives, etc get through the front gate. I’m over hunted and over fished. We all start on the first legal rifle season date. He got butt hurt, packed up his stuff when I wasn’t there and left.

His wife evidently got ahold of him and explained things to him. He showed up yesterday. We didn’t talk about the issue but they will be back. Glad of it.

Your place, your rules. If they don't like it, then they don't have to stay.

I set rules for a neighbor and his kids to fish. There are some fish holding tanks near the pond. I said to tell the kids no fishing in the holding tanks. I showed up unexpectedly, and the oldest was slinking away from the holding tank area with a fishing pole in his hand. I asked dad to ask him and he fessed up to it. I told his dad that that boy couldn't fish on the property for the rest of the year, but the other boy could. (the wife was with the kids when they were there and she knew of the rule too. I told the Dad that the only reason why I will allow them to fish in 2026 is because the boy was honest and fessed up.

Another neighbor knew the rules about fishing. All largemouth come out, no matter what the size. I caught him putting them back in and told him that they needed to ALL come out.He tried to explain ("It slipped off the hook and bounced off the pier into the pond" - he didn't know I saw him do that twice.....) and I told him that I spent a lot of $$ feeding, adding fish, and managing the pond. If he didn't want to abide by my rules he didn't have to fish there, A month later I caught him putting them back in again. I told him that he couldn't fish there any more. Talk about butt hurt! Too bad.

A customer asked if I wanted to deer hunt on his place - he didn't like to eat deer, and his deer were eating a lot of crops. He's in a deer reduction area and I can shoot 12 there. He said no bucks, only does. There was a big 12 point there, and I know he was trying for it. I sent him a picture of it framed nicely with my crosshairs on it. That evening he asked where the deer was and I said it was walking around somewhere out there. He said "Why didn't you shoot it?" I said "You said no bucks, it's your property, your rules. His reply was you should have shot it. I said Nope, you said does only and until told otherwise, that's what I will shoot. Now I have the green light on a buck. But I'll still just shot does and leave the bucks for him because he likes hunting them. I'll only shoot one if he tells me to take out a specific buck.

Esshup - Teaching guests to follow the rules is good social training. Thumbs Up!