Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Pond Boss meeting at D/FW questions

ewest, as usual, your idea of submitting questions in advance is excellent. An idea is that we might all submit questions and then have the discussion published some where.

1. In places, we have significant water erosion around the edges of our lake. What are some ideas for reducing this type of erosion?

2. We can already buy catfish and trout large enough to stock into existing lakes. Do you forsee other species being raised to larger sizes for stocking? If so, what species?

I'll think of more questions later.

Norm :

Great idea . I moved the existing start we made on other thread to centralise them here.

Dave :

In addition to well thought out questions it would be good to see them in advance so we are all prepared to address them. It would be good for the pros to have an idea what they need to address. At least we need to have areas if not questions scoped out and a way to cover the areas of interest in a reasonable time. For example if the group wants to talk about 4 types of problem plants we should id them {gennerally} in advance so all can check on them in advance and let Lusk know so that we don't spend 4 hrs. on plants in general and not get to the 20 other topics of interest. Just a couple of topic areas to think about , not my suggestions but a way to start iding possible topics { all topics are welcome not just those from people who will attend} :

1. forage base issues-- types , compare and contrast +- of each and how well they fit together in different systems.

2. problem plants-- how to id them- good web sites for id and mangt., the when , how and effect of mgt strat. on the pond system.

3. predator fish-- what type--management of them and how they fit with typical forage bases , +- of each.

4. sources of info-- {other than this fourm} good places for info like AFS and its subs. , state agency pond mgt. publications , scientific studies , Fed. and state agencies.

5. biology of the pond--differences in dirt , alka. , ph , water quality , DO , fertility , carrying capicity , thermoclines , silting , aeration.

6. Pond construction and mgt-- other than fish and water plants. Such as building the pond , docks , trees and plants around pond , types of tasks and proper equip. , things to and not to put in and around the pond .

I hope this starts the process. Who knows we may cover a lot of this before the meeting. We should find a way to pass along { a report} to non attending members the basics of the conversations. ewest
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Posts: 203 | From: miss. | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP: Logged

Dave Davidson
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Member # 61

Member Rated:
posted August 06, 2005 12:21 PM
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Ewest,.

Great idea. Think I will get some together out of the stuff you mentioned. I know Lusk can handle all of the above but a consensus will help.

Bail in guys.
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Posts: 1316 | From: Hurst & Bowie Texas | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged

Tentmaker Farm
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Member # 1471

Rate Member posted August 06, 2005 02:16 PM
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Some other thoughts on topics of discussion.

1) Nursery ponds for bluegill

2) Raising fish in cages

3) Farm security for non-resident owners

4) HSB vs LMB in small ponds
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Posts: 17 | From: Weatherford, Tx | Registered: Sep 2004 | IP: Logged

I like Tentmaker's first 2 , raising forage fish in seperate ponds , cages , or behind blocking nets. We could probably combine it in one topic-- aquaculture practices for pond owners-- what you need to know about raising and putting your own fish in the pond. I would really like to hear that part.

There must a bunch of good ideas out there. Lets hear them so Lusk et al will know what fourm members really want to hear . They can be general or specific , simple or complex , just pick it and post it. ewest

I moved Bob's note to this site. Please add responces below. ewest

Bob Lusk
Pond Boss Staff
Member # 3

Member Rated:
posted August 06, 2005 07:40 PM
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Greetings all!
Mike Otto and I are looking forward to a fun time at D/FW airport next Saturday. It will be a ball. Meeting Pond Boss subscribers and readers of the forum is always a blast.
I bet there will be an outstanding exchange of ideas and thoughts.

I'm aware of several people who are coming that are interested in building their first pond. Or, Like ML, embarking on a new, larger one.

One of the things I have been pondering is the statement made by someone here that 50% of bass never bite a lure/hook. Some of us have hook shy fish. Is that really genetic or is it more common to hatchery raised fish? Or is it a learned behavior? According to some posters with larger water holes, their efforts at balancing bass heavy ponds has gotten stymied by the learned behavior of their bass. I figured it was only common to small ponds but evidently not. I know that some research is being done by taking bass caught from a pond and removing them to another pond and then catching them and their progeny for further removal to a third pond and so on. Thus, they raise and maybe sell bass that can actually be caught. I don't know the status of these efforts.

A couple of considerations: Eastland started his stocking with larger fish caught elsewhere and he still catches fish. Heck, maybe he is just a better fisherman than I am. But, this might be the previously mentioned genetics. He just didn't stock any non biting fish at the start. On the other hand, Greg Grimes has observed that pellet fed bass are conditioned to feeding on non natural foods and bite lures quicker than non fed fish. This must be learned behavior but he might be only feeding and catching the 50% that will take non natural forage foods. Norm reports that his guests often catch the same fish multiple times. That argues for genetics or maybe just stupidity. I surmise that when a huge bass is caught, it may have been genetically inclined against biting but finally made a mistake due to hunger or just native agressiveness. Cecil reports on another thread that his larger bass flee at the sight of a fishing pole. I consider that fascinating and is obviously learned behavior.

When George and ML hooked me on fly fishing, I readily caught everything on pellet flies and a black midge. That ended. Must be learned behavior because catfish and bluegills all still feed voraciously on pellets. Maybe I need to build a pellet fly without a hook to see whether they are seeing the hook or the line (strings attached) or have learned to ignore a pellet that just doesn't smell right. I tried soaking pellet flies in fish oil vitamins and they wouldn't touch it.

Are there any observations that small fish learn caution from their larger brethren?

Where are they on this study? If anyone has info on this, please bring it, send it or post it.

I would prefer dumb fish.

Dave :

I will bring what I have on the subject and will try to locate some that I have read but don't have a copy of. I think the bases of those comments are true . ewest

Bob, Mike and everyone else, I'd like you to discuss the trends that you've seen over the years in small lake building and management. Then, I'd like to hear your ideas about things we might expect to see in the future.

One of the biggest changes that I've seen has been introducted by Bruce Condello with the use of HSB. It's not just the HSB but the idea that it is reasonable to continually stock larger fish into an existing population. It seems to me that this opens up a whole new set of possibilities to us.

There are literally hundreds of topics to discuss. There are definitely trends. I started in business in January, 1980, in Texas. That same year, the state stopped giving away free fish for stocking. We drank water from the tap, not bottled water from a store. People started buying fish to stock cattle tanks or ponds. By 1984, trends began shifting from renovating a pond and restocking with "free" fish, to learning techniques to care for fish, bought with hard earned money. Then, bottled water became a necessity for us to drink. At the same time, pond management was being born, across the nation. Regionally, techniques were refined by a small number of entreprenurial types...all of us thinking we were inventing our own wheels.By the early 90's fish combinations began to change, goals came more sharply into focus. Now, people are buying property exclusively because of lake sites or availability of that precious commodity we imbibe via plastic bottles..that wet stuff which costs more than gasoline. The trends I see are as much societal as biological. With ESPN tracking bass fishing trends and their audiences and comparing them to NASCAR five years ago, I am fascinated to unearth the future of private waters. With Ray Scott trying to figure out how to divine light line tournaments on private waters, I suspect trends in management to continue to unfold, right in front of the eyes of everyone who frequents this site. Biology, mixed with theory, and one-upmanship will surely create a mixed bag well beyond the tried and true balance of bass/bluegill research by the legendary H.S. Swingle, of Auburn University Fisheries Biology fame. Trends? Yep. Talked with a man yesterday, one who lurks on this site daily. He bought a place in Oklahoma, about 60 miles north of stately Lusk Lodge, near the shores of Lake Texoma. He is renovating a small pond, expanding and deepening it. In the beginning, his basic goals were to rehabilitate an old pond, slap dab in the middle of his hundred acre forest, nestled in the midst of farm and rangeland...property heretofore managed by landowners seeking income from the dirt. Not this man. Recreation, and investment. As the project has come together, he had done his due diligence. Due diligence? I can't tell you how many people, over the years, didn't understand the concept, much less do anything about it. Trends? Yep. Not only is this man becoming the norm, the norm is expanding. He has thought about his pond, re-thought it, surveyed, analyzed and dreamed about it. Now, on the threshold of dozer work, he knows what he wants. He wants a bass/bluegill pond which can grow hybrid striped bass and channel catfish, where his young boys and daughter (and himself) can grow up gliding across and dropping into clear water via a zip-line, then tie on a tube worm and catch a healthy bass. Trends? I see them, and it's exciting. Water. Ponds. Lakes. Renewable, ownable, beckoning. People are seeing which fish can thrive together in a community. The see the logical progression of a lake or pond. Simply, here's what they see, and use this formula to create their own trends. Habitat, food chain, genetics, harvest...in that order.
I am excited about this little get together next Saturday. See if you can figure out how to get there. Dave Davidson is worth the trip, plus it sounds like he knows how to make room at the inn. I am looking forward to it. Will see you next Saturday....trends and all.

I still need directions and info on the meeting.

[email protected]

WOW, Bob, what a great answer. There are many nuts and bolts types of things to talk about. I love hearing about where we've been and where we are going. Thanks again for your answer.

Norm and Bob :

Trends-- how about this Mississippi a relatively small/med. sized state with 2 million people has in excess of 1/4 million acres of private small ponds/lakes. Thats one acre for each 8 people. With the increasing demographics of people 45-65 who will be moving toward retirement and more leisure time the growth rate will increase. If you look at any aerial photo you will see many ponds. Last count I saw based on 10 year old data was 300,000 small private ponds/lakes in the state. ewest

ps: Guys we can't cover a hundred topics in one day. We need to narrow it down a little with some specifics.

Tentmaker, I'll send it to you tomorrow. I'm at home now and directions are at work.

Dave

Bob,

Great choice of words. I think if you added hard work and careful observation to that you will have described the techniques used by some of us to find a new and better approach to stocking and managing our ponds. Hope to see you Saturday.

Bob, I think you've identified the major trend very clearly. That is large numbers of people are buying and making recreational ponds. ewest, you are right again, we "baby boomers" are starting to retire. We will have the time and money to put into recreational property. These two factors (time and money) will drive our hobby like nothing else.

DFW Meeting Directions:

The DFW airport has two entrances. North off Hwy 114 and South off Airport Fwy/HWY 183.

Follow the signs to Terminal E. Terminal E has 3 Sections. Park in the parking deck for Gates 1-8. Its the highest parking deck on the north end of Terminal E.

We will have to meet outside of the Security Check Point located at Gate E-8. Dave Davidson and I will be there at 8:00 AM with a name list and escort you through security.

I have arranged for soft drinks and lunch. I look forward to meeting with you all. Gary

If you get to the airport and have a problem my cell phone number is 817-915-4713.

Dave :

What is the latest on attendance ?

We have a good start but could use a few additional topics or ideas . A bigger consensus on what fourm members would like to hear addressed would help. Ideas anyone. ewest

We have 15 so far. Plus, I'm still waiting to hear from Mike Otto about a couple of people he might bring.

Musings about topics to get the ball rolling:

Regarding forage; Three of the attendees have gotten into tilapia instead of the tried and true BG and fatheads. Shiners are seldom discussed. Probably because they aren't fished for. The number one forage in our local lakes is shad. Yet, they can't be transported. Or can they?

Biology of the pond is where it all starts.

Are there any other viable predators than bass, cats, HSB, walleyes, etc.?

How do you find a leak in the dam? How about thru the sides? Has anyone escept Cecil successfully used bentonite?

An awful lot of pond plants look the same to me. How about you guys?

Just some thoughts

Dave or Pondrookie,

The email states the starting time is 9am, pondrookie you say to meet in the terminal at 8am. Just wanted a clarification on the time to meet inside the terminal.

Thanks

Mike, it starts at 9:00 but Gary and I will be there at 8:00 just in case some come early. I doubt that you would hurt our feelings to show up early.

BTW, bring pond pictures.

Additional topic :

Eastland
Lunker
Member # 512

Member Rated:
posted August 11, 2005 10:42 PM
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I'll push the post to the limit...isn't "Red Tide" a somewhat unknown bloom that seems to appear when the water becomes stagnant, when the salinity levels rise? Killing everything in its path, and remains uncontrollable ? The moral to the story seems to be...you can enhance fertility, but beware of the consequences if you cross the threshold. To steal a phrase, Keep It Simple Stupid (lol) Mother Nature would prefer you to maintain a solid forage base without chemical reactions.
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Posts: 350 | From: Dallas TX | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged

ewest
Lunker
Member # 1798

posted August 12, 2005 09:38 AM
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Eastland :

Good points . Sounds like a topic for DFW meeting. How about " chemical reactions in the pond -- a comparison of naturally fertile ponds and infertile ponds " {including pics.}. I will add it to the DFW thread. Thanks. ewest
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ewest