Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss New venture

Hey all, good to see everyone still hard at it!
Wanted to drop in and let everyone know it's been a butt-kicking summer, learned a bunch, have continued to run sleepless more than I care, but some good things have come out of all of the havoc.
I have been blessed with the opportunity to build a partnership with a fellow Pondboss member here that will continue to build on something in this business that nobody has been able to do to this point.
Part of this is finding more and more available water to raise fish in and a big piece of this has been crossing state lines and getting certified in multiple locations-by the right organizations-to be able to import-export in the manner we need this to work.
Our target will be 2 main species and at least 1 secondary species. Pond construction, consulting and management of fisheries will become a shared endeavor throughout this.
The work this gent has already done to get this up and going is at the least-impressive.
I'm not going to mention a name, but I'm going to get him to follow up on this post and get a bit more specific to what it is I couldn't be doing without his help!
One thing I have learned from the last year is when the GBH has you half-way down his throat...NEVER let go of that neck!!
Game on!

Exciting!!! Congratulations!!!

Good Luck, Sir.

I am glad and excited that you found someone who is willing to enter a fish raising partnership with you. Your knowledge and experience are invaluable parts of growing species that you are familiar with and the requirements for producing high quality stocker species. I am praying for you to have much success.

Best of luck, I may be giving you a call for some consulting.

Best of luck.

I have an unexpected change freeing up some time in my schedule coming up after 1-1-25 so if there is something I can do to bring your services to others or help out for pond owners in Michigan please message me.

He will need help transporting fish. LOL

Sorry I'm a bit tardy to the stage a following that intro - better late than never!

Kenny and I have enjoyed a great kinship the past several years guiding each other on projects with our collective years of pond/fishery management experience, and he's been instrumental in my continuing improvement on my hobby fish hatchery results. I've been specifically monitoring his tireless efforts to perfect the art of Saugeye hybridization and maximizing SMB recruitment over the past several seasons, and am excited to collaborate to maximize the aquaculture opportunities.

Our plan to is continue to expand SMB production of both our DNA tested Dale Hollow genetics and to provide an opportunity for folks to finally get their hands on the legendary SAE. We will be the only commercially available source of SAE on the planet and I'm eager to continue learning more about their unique role in fishery management. I invite Kenny to provide deeper context, but SAE tolerance of turbid and warm conditions in addition to their effectiveness to manage Lepomis populations are characteristics I feel can literally change our industry. While LMB are the traditional tool to manage Lepomis species, managing LMB populations and avoiding trading problems with stunted, low WR LMB is a time consuming and labor intensive process. While we're already aware of fellow PB member Aaron Matos’ success managing SMB in 90+ degree AZ ponds, we're experiencing great results with SAE growth and beneficial impacts on Leopmis populations/WR increase as far South as S OK and N TX. We plan to continue to expand SAE territory over future seasons to determine the extent of their range, but I'm confident we can create successful limited gape predator fisheries [SMB, SAE, YP, TM] for our PB family in AL, GA, MS, TN and TX. Nothing like a little slice of Canada for our buddies below the Mason Dixon.

Kenny can chime in to discuss stocking rates [25/AC], supplemental stocking schedules [Annual-biannual], and help manage expectations on SAE growth [world record 15 pounds, 10 ounces] and impact to panfish populations [decreased population density/WR increase]. Anyone interested in our Dale Hollow SMB genetics or SAE feel free to reach out - kenny@aquaticspecialties.info or tj@hudlandmgmt.com. We appreciate the support of our Pond Boss forum family!

Been chomping at the bit to make a ripple in our pond/fishery management industry someday - blessed the opportunity has at long last presented itself. Thanks K!

TJ

Outstanding!!!

Awesome. You guys are great to work with!!

As Lusk says - Hard work and due diligence will result in very good success. The market is huge if you can get high annual production and survival rates of hatched fry. The wholesale demand is far more than the partnership can produce. Best to your partnership.

Guys, I hope y'all hit a home run. We're just an hour south of OK, so feed trained SMB would be interesting here in NE Texas.

I’d like to see SAE performance in yours, Cody’s and Bytor’s ponds if we have any with Lepomis management issues.

In addition to managing Lepomis, I would also like to see how the SAE do in a pond with a crappie population.

If they would devastate the small crappie, yet allow a decent number of large crappie to survive the gauntlet each year, then that could also be a fun and tasty fishery!

SAE are stocked throughout KS in fisheries with WCP/BCP population issues and they not only grow exceptionally fast but improve the CP WR significantly. Both are pelagic so they are especially vulnerable to SAE predation. HSB and SAE stocking would serve as a great combo for fishery scenarios like this.

Rod, this is where the program began.. The original intent was a fish that is WAE-like in nature but handles more turbid, lower DO, warmer conditions. In every case that was documented the crappie/sunfish present grew considerably adjacent to these stockings. It has become so popular in many impoundments in NE and KS that have low WAE recruitment, they are now being stocked exclusively with SAE.
The big deal for us is that these fish do 3-4 times better in small ponds/lakes than WAE do.

I would say nearly every lake in a 90 mile radius has become more shallow, turbid, warmer and with lower DO. That leads to tons of stunted and small LMB and bluegill. Having an option like SAE to help restore balance would be tremendous. But I can also see where states bordering on one of the great lakes might raise all kinds of concerns about 'genetically altered' fish getting into the great lakes and eating the alewives or something like that. The closest all sports lake to me has these exact conditions plus tons of stunted crappie. Hopefully you can expand into MI once the paperwork hassles get sorted out and some education about your research and findings can find its way to the MI environmental biology folks.

SAE are naturally occurring hybrid just like BG/RES - just much more rare. Many midwestern states are actively stocking SAE but I suspect some states may need to be educated that these fish pose zero threat to their fisheries.

The State of Ohio stocks SAE in a vast majority of the State lakes and reservoirs. Back in college I worked for the State of Ohio as a creel clerk gathering data like numbers, sizes, species of both caught and harvest fish on lakes that the State had stocked. A dream job. I would not think the State would have much of any push back if you wanted to expand to Ohio.

With my experience with the level of inefficiency and some of the rather outdated mentality of the old timers in our state environmental agency, I would say it would be far easier to put a big sign on your fish hauling truck that says FRESH WALLEYE and show your 'walleye' stockers have had the required testing and stock them. You said hybridization happens naturally and that WAE and SAE are hard to distinguish visually so after they are in it would be hard to prove exactly what fish is what and how they got there.

I'm kidding of course as we don't want to go around laws but I would say all the fuss and red tape is much ado about nothing

A customer has a SMB/YP/RES/HBG pond with a self sustaining population of GSH. We put some Hybrid Crappie in there and they are doing fantastic (16.25", 2 3/8# in 3 years) and I have been trying to get SAE for that pond for the last 3 years. Not Snipes fault, he has gotten screwed out of the fish the past few years. Maybe 2025 will be the year that I finally get some for that pond. There are some HSB in that pond now that are approaching 5# each too. There was a whoopsie moment when the RES were initially stocked (and I stocked all the fish in the pond). Some BG were mixed with the RES.I hand sorted all the HBG, and found 6 BG in them that were removed and I thought we were OK. Nope...... Now the BG and HBG are over 2#. Hopefully this winter I will get some pictures of the fish on a ruler and on a scale during ice fishing season.

The biggest management job is keeping the HBG/BG/HCP(HBCP) population down so that the fishery still produces large panfish. That is where the SAE would come in handy. The HCP(HBCP) population isn't growing like the BG/HBG population is but I want to stay ahead of it. I'd rather have to stock more than to try and take out excess. So far we have been OK on that front.

The SAE are NOT "genetically altered" fish, they are a hybrid just like a hybrid bluegill is a cross between a green sunfish and a northern bluegill.

Here are some ways to tell the difference between walleye and saugeye:

Dorsal fin
Walleye have no spots on their dorsal fin, while sauger have distinct spots. The hybrid of the two species, the saugeye, has spots and bars in the webbing of its dorsal fin.

Color
Walleye are generally more green throughout their body, while sauger are darker and have dark blotches from head to tail.
Size
Walleyes can stretch more than 30 inches or more, while saugers are typically the smaller of the two, averaging 12 to 18 inches in length.
Cheek scales
Sauger have lots of rough scales on their cheek while walleye and saugeye only have a few cheek scales. Walleye cheek scales are smooth.
Tail tip
If you see a white tail tip, it's a walleye. No white tip, it's a sauger.
Habitat
Walleye live in rivers, natural lakes and reservoirs, in both clear and turbid, as well as both shallow and deep water. Saugeye are highly adaptable to most lake and river environments and are tolerant of turbid (murky) waters.

Question for the experts (probably has been covered elsewhere).

Should these stocked SAE be considered as "non-reproducing" in typical pond conditions?

Triploid carp are considered to be truly sterile.

Hybrid striped bass can produce eggs and milt after becoming sexually mature, but there is typically low fertilization success, plus the pond conditions generally inhibit the maturation of fertilized eggs.

Walleye typically do not produce in smaller ponds. (I think mostly due to inappropriate spawning conditions in the pond?)

What is the expected reproductive potential of SAE in ponds? Further, which scenario above is closest to the expectations for SAE? (Assuming my summaries are close to being correct. Feel free to clarify as needed.)