When stocking crays for long term forage items make sure there is lots of rocky habitat that they can use as home refuge areas from hungry bass and YP. IMO you cannot have too much rocky structure if you want a thriving cray population. Banks lined with rocky material. To my knowledge the crays come out of the refugia regularly at night to shed their carapace as they grow. At this time with their new very soft shell is when they are VERY vulnerable to predation. The adults have to survive to get fertilized, develop eggs and release YOY crays into good refuge habitat. Take time to do your homework of the life history of the cray specie/s that you stocked. Some species develop and incubate eggs differently than other species.
TP - do your best efforts to purchase 50:50 male:female TP.
GAMS - unless you have LOTS of shallow, shoreline, emergent plant habitat as GAM refugia the YOY LMB will eliminate the GAMs in 2025. YOY LMB are good at hunting among emergent plants. The amount of emergent plants will determine the survival of GAMs. IMO lots = lots and none = none and in my experience some plants = none.
Refresh our memory. How big is the pond and how many mixed sex LMB did you stock?? Remember 50% of the LMB that you stocked were males. Your 2024 YOY LMB WILL have LMB reproduction in Spring of 2025. Maybe use the late pre-spawn 2025 period to remove male LMB from nests? At least I would try it to see how well it works for you. IMO you don't need to be feeding forage to male LMB. One or two male LMB nests will produce more than enough new crop LMB for any size pond.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/28/2409:19 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
On the crays. I think these are either Northerns or Water Nymph. The descriptions for both of these species is very similar (at least for what I've seen on them). Couple pics of what I pulled from the local creek. There we some larger and some smaller but all pretty much looked the same.
I need to recheck on the spawning but I was thinking they mated in the fall. Added spawning info for both species below.
I am curious on the TP. Almost everybody I see online that sells brood fish sells them in 3-5 female with 1-2 male. Why is the 50:50 mix important?
Water inlet is the skinny water for sure. It doesn't have much in the way of pants in it currently. Kind of a work in progress. I would like to deepen it a little and use it as a silt trap for the waterway that feeds it. At the end of the day it will be riprap and plants. Anything I can do to slow down sediments. If the GAM's survive fantastic. If they don't I'm not sure I would try to get more of them.
Pond is 1.5 acre and we stocked 50 LMB. Absolutely on trying to pull some male LMB. From the initial 50 I'd like to pull a min of 10 LMB If we can do that in all males fantastic. If it's a combo of males and underperforming I'd call that a win too.
Last edited by Boondoggle; 09/29/2409:24 AM. Reason: Modified crayfish spawning info.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
What would be a good expectation of 1st year survival of BD's original 50 LMB?
+1 on Bill's comments for reducing males so that more forage is available to the females.
BD, how many and what sizes of BG did you stock? IIRC you stocked 10 lbs of MOZ TP?
Just something I can add. 50 LMB growing to .61 lbs in 4 months require around 60 lbs of forage, When BD last reported, if the LMB averaged .61 lbs at that time ... the cumulative consumption would have been 60 lbs (give or take a little) according to energetics. Up to August 24, BDs LMB were consuming 23% more (average daily consumption) than the model for maximum consumption. The RW were >150 at that time. Now when I run from August 24 to 9/26 using the August 24 milestone as the starting place, energetics shows that the LMB were consuming on average only 90% of the model for maximum consumption. So definitely a VERY BIG change of consumption relative to the model. This alone, was enough to convince me that BD's worries about what the drop of RW may mean for growth over winter may be warranted. Personally, I don't think its absolutely necessary that his fish make their 1 year anniversary at >1.5 lbs average. IOWs I don't think it to be prerequisite to grow them by 1.5 lbs average over the next 12 months and each year thereafter. Trophy fish, I think will happen in BD's pond because I believe he will limit his population sufficiently to blow our minds with big fish he will grow. I might tell him he doesn't have to max things out in the first year to succeed remarkably. But BD, best I can tell, isn't going to settle for growing those fish at anything less than their maximum potential.
I know there is a large standing weight of BG and TP in his pond. We know his pond has already produced 60 lbs of consumed forage (if 50 LMB average .61 lbs) and if we add what was consumed to the production of surviving BG and TP we would have an understanding of the total weight of BG, minnows, and TP were produced this year. I suspect it is well above 60 lbs (its too far above my pay grade to venture a guess). Most of these surviving prey fish are too large for his LMB to eat. So here is my question, the answer to which is also above my grade of pay. Is there anything that BD might have done differently that would have helped him to produce less forage too big to eat and more forage in consumable sizes? Specifically, could he have altered the stocking rates of the various species he stocked in this initial year to produce more forage that would be of consumable sizes today? (So that he might not have had to supplement to keep them growing maximally).
Last edited by jpsdad; 09/29/2409:42 AM. Reason: Update the forage amount
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
As temperatures drop in fall, virile crayfish move to deeper water to escape freezing. There, they become inactive and covered with silt, or hide under large rocks. When temperatures warm in spring, they return to shallow water. Breeding occurs from July until they retreat to deep water for the winter, and resumes for a time in spring. Eggs are laid in March and April, and mothers carry young in May and June. They mature in their second year of life.
This species probably follows the typical crayfish cycle of mating in the fall, laying eggs in the spring, and the hatching of young by the beginning of summer. Crayfish must periodically molt their rigid, shell-like exoskeletons in order to grow. The new shell develops beneath the old one over a period of weeks. Then, the old shell splits on the back, between the carapace and abdomen, and the entire body is withdrawn through this opening. It takes about a week afterward for the new shell to harden.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
BD, how many and what sizes of BG did you stock? IIRC you stocked 10 lbs of MOZ TP?
We stocked:
~1,450 BG in the 3-5" range. There were a few of these guys in the 4-5" class (say 100-150). ~ 250 RES in the 3-4" range. 50-60 lbs of FHM 40-50 lbs of GSH 100 YP - Pellet Trained
10lbs of TP Mutts - These were not straight MOZ
Haven't sampled specifically for the BG sizes recently but we did catch some along the way with the LMB. I have records for 4-7" BG on my worksheet.
From trapping of the BG there are at least three sizes of small BG/RES present in the 1", 2" and 3-4" plus the larger parents above. My concern was that when I was trapping I just wasn't seeing much of a QTY of them coming up.
Last edited by Boondoggle; 09/29/2408:59 AM.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Thanks BD. I am looking forward to the discussion that might follow between yourself and others. I should mention that the 179 lbs of forage I earlier mentioned to have been already consumed was in error. That number is actually close to 60 lbs. I was glancing at a summation that summed a much longer period than what has happened thus far in your pond. Anyways, I edited above with the changes underlined. It's pretty amazing, but energetics is consistent with that very small weight of forage. FCR is amazing for little fish that consume at large proportions of their body weight. One thing really stands out to me. You actually stocked more minnows than the LMB could have consumed at their present weight. That is, according to energetics. I trust energetics because I am certain that the laws of thermodynamics are not going to be broken. It would take at least 60 lbs of forage to grow 50 LMB to an average weight of .61 from 5.31.2024 to 9.26.2024 Also I think that it would not take much more than that.
Another thing that is very interesting is that the consumption between 8.25 and 9.26 was a high proportion (80%) of what they had consumed up to 8.25. Cumulative consumption increased by 80% from 8.25 to 9.26. Just goes to show how forage needs grow exponentially as fish grow exponentially. Even so, the forage consumed thus far this year is only a minor fraction of what they would consume next year across the same period of time.
Quote
From trapping of the BG there are at least three sizes of small BG/RES present in the 1", 2" and 3-4" plus the larger parents above. My concern was that when I was trapping I just wasn't seeing much of a QTY of them coming up.
I commonly use my hand to measure fish for a quick and dirty measurement. So the width of three fingers is about 2.5" for me. Just glancing at the photo, I might estimate the smaller fish at 3". Interesting how the smaller 1"-2" fish are in the pickerelweed. Makes perfect sense that they need the cover as protection against predation.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Was on site today and grabbed a couple of vids of the fish in 4 of the common areas on the pond. All of these are from today. While hand feeding, I accidentally threw the plastic cups in the water and had to get out to get them. Water is noticeably cooler than just a few weeks ago. TP life likely counted in weeks.
This is SW corner to the Northwest corner of the pond. Nothing from the peninsula, "Dad's Dream", or the trees by the peninsula. West Bank is probably the highest level of forage, it's also the shallowest part of pond.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
[quote] I am curious on the TP. Almost everybody I see online that sells brood fish sells them in 3-5 female with 1-2 male. Why is the 50:50 mix important?/quote]
I incorrectly assumed that tilapia commonly available to many pond owners were mainly males raised by food fish and not raised primarily for pond stocking. Pond stockers will often buy TP from food fish growers who use mainly fast growing individuals. Those TP are mostly all male TP. I think TP need to be mature to determine gender. Maybe not. I am not a TP expert. I am not sure how efficiently male vs female TP are sexed by regular pond TP stockers. TP are fairly difficult to correctly determine the gender. One has to be well experienced to rapidly and quickly determine gender on lots of TP. I basically separate male and female TP mainly by size group and color of mature males. Males grow faster than females thus when a batch of 7 month old mixed TP sizes are present for TP 3"-8" long, I consider smaller ones females and larger ones males.
Thus it was my opinion that buying a 50:50 TP group mix would be the best way to insure plenty of females to provide lots of YOY TP that are best for eating the small forms of attached algae for control and YOY will also serve as forage fish. I was told maybe incorrectly that YOY TP are crafty and soon learn to be pretty good at escaping predation and thus YOY TP are not well eaten by predators during the heat of summer thus the YOY were not considered an ideal forage fish until the TP were sluggish and dying due to cold water 48F-55F conditions. TP death temperature due to cold water depends on variety /specie of TP. .
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/29/2408:32 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Very Good videos. They show well the current relative numbers, types and sizes of your forage fish. These vids will be very informative and helpful for you to compare and evaluate forage fish density as time passes and the fishery ages. jpsdad with his adept fish modeling efforts has indicated your current forage fish community is currently very adequate that has produced the excellent sizes and RWs of 8 month old LMB that you now have.
IMO the first most common main decrease in forage numbers will be about 8-16 months after the first LMB spawn. Then these new bass with their parents will be eliminating the remaining FHM adults and then start working heavily consuming the young GSH and small edible sizes of BG to obtain their high RWs when optimum forage numbers and small fish sizes are still abundant .
After the first and second LMB spawns have aged to 1 and 2 years is when to watch and compare the examples of 2024 forage amount videos with your early fall videos made in 2026 and 2027. These comparisons will provide a good indication of the status and relative abundance of the forage community. Ideally you want the forage fish community in future years to always be somewhat similar as shown in your current videos minus the FHM. It is the VERY rare pond habitat and fishery balance that can always maintain a breeding population of the same size and type of fishes that the fathead minnows now exhibit in your pond shallow areas.. IMO and experience this ability of always having a small true minnow specie/s abundance of forage fish composition is provided by very good habitat and a careful balance of predator species, their sizes, and their numbers that are present.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/29/2408:19 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
I am curious on the TP. Almost everybody I see online that sells brood fish sells them in 3-5 female with 1-2 male. Why is the 50:50 mix important?
I'm not sure if your assumption is incorrect or not Bill. I was curious if you had some info I hadn't seen and I don't know if my supplier this year provided 50/50 mix. My loose plan for next year would be to have a divided stock tank (hardware cloth separation) filled with pond water that we could aerate or continuously fill from the pond temporarily when the fish come out. Supplier's 6-9" TP in the stock tank and then sex them. All females go from stock tank and males returned to stock tank on the empty side of the tank. After the sexing put in one male (largest available) for every 3 females we stocked.
If it didn't work...I be out the cost of a stock stank, aerator/pump and some time. If it did, I'd save on whatever the forage consumption from those males was, be it pellets, fish, and some of the plant life.
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
I was told maybe incorrectly that YOY TP are crafty and soon learn to be pretty good at escaping predation and thus YOY are not well eaten by predators and the YOY were not considered an ideal forage fish until the TP were sluggish and dying due to cold water 48F-55F conditions and depending on variety /specie of TP.
I asked this question earlier on evasion of BG vs TP as forage. It's not in any of the reading I've done as an answer, but from my personal observations on the forage in the pond through visual hand feeding samples and traps (I have not seined). My BG counts are not nearly as substantial as my standing weight of TP size for size. In the short vids I posted above from today many of those fish are TP of various sizes. I'm sure there are some BG mixed in as well. My small size and qty of LMB are probably not good for valid scientific sample.
Part of my hypothesis was that the 100 YP were 100% forage consumers this year as I have seen no evidence of YoY. Watching the vids today I also wondered if the TP also might have contributed to consumption of BG YoY just due to the sheer numbers of them in the vids.
My next sample of LMB is around Oct 19. Hoping to catch a couple to see if RW's have changed.
Last edited by Boondoggle; 09/29/2408:33 PM.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Boon, I'm looking forward to hearing what the experts have to say on your TP question. I started off with no BG (Suspect the GSF and YBH ate them as none have been caught) Thinking TP may be a good forage addition and assist with the excessive vegetation I have. Hopefully the BG stocked in August take off this spring.
Right now it's good cover as I don't have the structure you have. I'm correcting that and hope to have at least 25% of the pond with structure before spring and hopefully get some good spring rains to eliminate my shallow water situation.
It makes fishing extremely difficult.
2 Acre, Completed July 2022, CC,BG, Sept. 2022, LMB June 2023, GSF, YBH invasion in 2022. BG, CNBG, RES, 2025, TP seasonal.
Part of my hypothesis was that the 100 YP were 100% forage consumers this year as I have seen no evidence of YoY. Watching the vids today I also wondered if the TP also might have contributed to consumption of BG YoY just due to the sheer numbers of them in the vids.
+1 ... Boondoggle, what about the BG? They also cannibalize their young and there are many more of them than YP in the initial stocking.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Agree on BG cannibalism. I guess I listed the other two as I've never heard of BG being able to eat themselves out of or nearly out of existance.
I have never heard of BG being able to eat themselves out of or nearly out of existence either. There are documented cases however where BG alone can cause a complete failure of year class recruitment. It has been studied and I have read at least one study and can point you to it if you are interested in reading it. BG swim up experienced predation in your pond by all the species capable of consuming them. So I figure it wasn't just BG ... but just like you .. a combined predation resulting in what you now observe.
FWIW. I think you were successful in producing a year class of BG ... the evidence is in your trap results. As I understood your observations, you would like to be seeing more of them with some additional smaller sizes also present. I agree that would be good to see.
Last edited by jpsdad; 09/30/2410:16 AM. Reason: add last paragraph
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Boondoggle - you say "I was curious if you had some info I hadn't seen and I don't know if my supplier this year provided 50/50 mix. My loose plan for next year would be to have a divided stock tank (hardware cloth separation) filled with pond water that we could aerate or continuously fill from the pond temporarily when the fish come out. Supplier's 6-9" TP in the stock tank and then sex them. All females go from stock tank and males returned to stock tank on the empty side of the tank. After the sexing put in one male (largest available) for every 3 females we stocked."
Before trying your gender separating plan, I would first check with some questions to your TP supplier. A. Ask if he raises them himself.
B. If he raises them, does he buy mixed 50:50 fry or primarily male fry? My TP (blues & blue hybrids) grower tried growing some of the offspring from a pond stocked crop of TP. He thought those prior year offspring did not grow nearly as well as the fry he regularly buys in Dec. from AZ. Why neither of us knew why.
C. Some TP for pond stocking are bought from big growers for resale. What technique / method does your grower use to sex the TP.? If it is the urogenital pore method those features are pretty difficult to see on non-reproducing individuals. Spend some time catching some various sizes of 3"-7" TP in your pond before the water gets below 60F. Try sexing them and you will see that the smaller they are the more difficult it becomes. Notice the grower in the video uses large Moz. TPand also dye to aid seeing the gender. IMO on small fish it is not as easy as it looks. Notice that the guy in the video does not show a comparison of shape and size of lips on females just shows the male. IMO the lips test will be very evident of immature TP.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/30/2409:50 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
What would be a good expectation of 1st year survival of BD's original 50 LMB?
I hadn't seen an answer to this pop up and personally don't know the aurthor. I have read on the site that he was a very good guy and well thought of however. From what I saw from Dr Willis listed 30%.
Take a look at the charts. Let's assume that you have a largemouth bass population in a South Dakota pond that experiences 30% total annual mortality (top figure). That means 30% will die each year regardless of whether they are harvested or not. If you start with 100 largemouth bass at age 1, by the time they reach age 5 there will only be 24 left. In contrast, let's say you have 100 age-1 black crappies in a southern U.S. reservoir. They have a total annual mortality rate of 70%. In this case, you should expect only 1 of those 100 crappies to still be alive at age 5. See the huge effect that different mortality rates have on those two different populations?
Sounds like species and region also play into this. Like almost everything else in this game of ours trying to manage the water and the fish.....nothing is certain.
If the 30% number turns out to be correct - my 50 LMB would be 35 next year at 1 year. If I was able to pull another 10 in the way of males or lowest performing fish I'd be down to 25 in the 1.5 acres. With short numbers of fish like that I would hope that forage options for them would be high and RW's continue to be maximized. Each LMB spawn does require us to harvest smaller fish along with additional males anytime we can identify them.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Fantastic Idea! I'll see if i can grab a couple of these guys from the pond vs net, trap or catch and use food coloring as the "dye" to try to sex them. From the multiple sexing vids I've seen the horizontal slit with dye is the best method. The lips version I haven't seen in many of the vids.
The fella I used this year is out of Hutchinson, KS and it sounds like they have a continual recruitment process with indoor housing/tanks. I did ask the question on Blue and species of TP they carry and it sounds like these are mutts with various species combined. How the recruitment stacks up against a Blue or Moz pure I don't know as this is the first time I've used TP but from the vids we have more TP than the LMB are going to be able to consume this year as some of them will definitely be out of reach on size.
Very good idea BC. I hadn't thought about trying to do this this year.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Boondoggle - Dr. Willis was an expert professor, good associate friend and very good fish guy. He gives very good information about LMB survival. However He is referring to LMB in an established community not in a new pond setting. IMO LMB survival will be higher than 30% in a new pond setting primarily because due to lack of competition from various LMB year classes and lack of established ecosystem stressors in a new pond. Now once the community year classes become well established in future year classes of LMB,,, then I whole heartedly believe the 30% mortality rate derived from numerous practical fishery research studies.
IMO your LMB first year survival of the first stocking of LMB into a pond full of optimum forage will closer to 70%-90% compared to 30% survival. This assumes the stocker LMB were handled properly from seining to final pond placement. There are numerous handling and holding steps in between seining & pond stocking where health stressors to LMB can easily occur. Stressors kill fish.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/30/2410:12 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
If the 30% number turns out to be correct - my 50 LMB would be 35 next year at 1 year. If I was able to pull another 10 in the way of males or lowest performing fish I'd be down to 25 in the 1.5 acres. With short numbers of fish like that I would hope that forage options for them would be high and RW's continue to be maximized. Each LMB spawn does require us to harvest smaller fish along with additional males anytime we can identify them.
+1
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Bah...I said that improperly. 30% mortality was what I meant with 70% survival. The math played out for it with 50-15 and then another 10 culling. Thanks for catching that BC
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
IMO your LMB first year survival of the first stocking of LMB into a pond full of optimum forage will closer to 70%-90% compared to 30% survival. This assumes the stocker LMB were handled properly from seining to final pond placement. There are numerous handling and holding steps in between seining & pond stocking where health stressors to LMB can easily occur. Stressors kill fish.
This brings me to a question I could use some help with on "Stressors". I think handling fish at low water temps would be a stressor for them with impacts to the slime coat on the fish and they fishes ability to heal from injury. My Oct 19 date was derived because it was on a Saturday where I could get out to the property to "test" pretty much without restriction of daily life and the assumption that the water temp would be quazi high enough not to cause harm to the fish but close enough to the end of the growing season to show where they were at from initial stocking. Is there a lower safe handling temperature - I could monitor this and ultimately do our last "test" just ahead of it?
Last edited by Boondoggle; 09/30/2410:30 AM.
1.5acre LMB, YP, BG, RES, GSH, Seasonal Tilapia I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Good fish farmers tell me some fish species handle a lot better in cooler or cold water compared to warm water 60F-75Ftemps. They also say some species tolerate handling better in warmer water 60+F to 74F. There should be a list of this type of information on PB Forum.
Boondogg says "I think handling fish at low water temps would be a stressor for them with impacts to the slime coat on the fish."
IMO the colder the water the less active the invader bacteria and viruses are for colonizing the body area that lacks slime. Bacteria and virus are a lot less active in cooler conditions - thus the refrigerator. Bacterial infections are one of the big causes or contributors of fish deaths.
Anytime for what ever reason when a fish is removed or pulled out of the water there are new types of stressors upon that fish. Fish are weightless animals while in water and when out of water they are influenced by gravity and being slapped on the ground is probably highly stressful for them. When fish are handled there is always some form of slime removal from slight to rubbing, dropping or laying that fish on the ground, dock, or boat bottom. Those out of water surfaces contain murids of bacteria waiting for a host. Slime is the immune system for fish. Removal any form of body slime exposes the area to bacterial / viral invasion. As noted above temperature influences activity of bacteria. Careful handling of fish out of water hopefully removes a minimal amount of slime that can usually be fairly quickly replaced by a healthy well fed fish. Sometimes big fish are left in the water as they are unhooked and released. IMO holding and unhooking a fish in a net while in the water would cause the least amount of stress. I am told rubber landing nets are best for careful handling of fish and not getting hooks caught in the netting. One idea for sampling your LMB would to take the most care for the larger individuals that you catch during sampling measuring efforts. Less acre can then be used for smaller fish. The more the fish are exposed to the effects of angling the more hook shy they become.
I had a visitor Saturday catching TP. The topic of TP & fish getting hook smart came up. The angler has a dog. I asked her what would happen if she imbedded a hook in a chink of hot dog and the dog ate it and then she drug or jerked the dog around by a cord attached to the hook. What type of positive or negative experience would this impart to the dog?. How soon do you think it be eager to eat another chunk of hot dog?
Tuesday I will try and call my best and smartest fish fish grower to get his opinion and experiences for the best temperature/s for handling LMB.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/30/2408:35 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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