Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Evaluating New Pond and New Fish

Trying to figure out how to gauge performance of the pond and fish in conjunction with RW's. My guess is it's dynamic and "it depends". New ponds with low carrying loads likely have abundant resources inherently. Stocked in high numbers for forage vs predator, feeding with pellets and have sampled some of the fish limitedly. The RW's I'm seeing look fantastic but they are likely against a normal pond setting where additional feeding via pellets are not used. Is there a cap or a max growth to compare against?

(3) LMB 158%, 145%, 178% with an avg RW of 160% for the 3.

(10) BG range of 102-158% avg RW of 127% for the 10.

Have read several articles on LMB on how much they can grow in a year. It seems like the general rule of thumb is 2lbs or more. I haven't seen a mention of what the length or RW that would need to be achieved to raise a fish like that. Is it possible to fill in those gaps?

Completely get that they can't skip a meal to get there. Forage and possibly supplemental pellets may be needed to do it. Likely some regional play in there with North, Midwest, and South. Are there some benchmarks that I could use along the way?

October - Fish should be ???

March - Fish should be ???

Just a quick point....

"(3) LMB 158%, 145%, 178% with an avg RW of 160% for the 3."

By introducing feed, and in your case, aggressive forage stocking, we create a true sim-world.

I've accepted it....and it's AWESOME!!!!!

Nice work, Boon!

I had previously made a post about what I thought were pretty good RW of my LMB and SMB earlier this summer,
Avg 11” and 1.03#. In the last 45 days I have noticed the RW was coming down quite a bit but the fish are still growing, now avg is 12.5” and 1.25#, they went from being pretty round (like a BG) to being a little longer and leaner. Not sure if it’s the samples I’m catching or some other factors playing a part in this. I even caught a SMB that was right at 100% this week, definitely was not the norm.
My HSB are almost 2# now but the RW is never over 105%
CC have made it close to 17” and as high as 2.56#
CNBG upwards of 7.5”, no weight recorded,
I have also read of people who have 2# LMB after a year, IMO it’s either mineshaft conditions or some fish stories. Maybe it’s growing season difference ?
I’m not to a year yet, but I don’t see any Bass approaching 2# in the next 2 months

It's all about having enough food in the pond for the bass (either live fish or the bass are pellet trained) AND the fish have to be the size that they need to keep growing quickly. A 1.25#, 13" LMB needs to eat a much larger fish than a 6"-9" LMB needs. To keep the bass growing fast, you need fish (bluegills) that are now 3.5" - 4.25" (each bass will need to eat approximately 250 to 400 fish that size to gain 1 pound of weight). You are seeing them get leaner because they don't have enough of the correct sized fish in the pond to eat. They are swimming more and more to find the correct size fish.

Do you have cover in the pond for the LMB to use as ambush points to catch their meals or are they like marathon runners, constantly swimming around, looking for a meal?

A customer was catching 15", 2# bass in late September in their 1 acre pond from fingerlings (2"-3") 50 LMB stocked in late April. 25# FHM,& 25# GSH were stocked in late June the previous year; Bluegill were stocked in early April the following year (1,250 1"-2.5", 1.250 2.5"-3.5") along with 750 2.5:-3.5" RES, roughly 3 weeks prior to stocking the LMB. They also had a TH feeder feeding Optimal BG JR to the fish in the pond. Against my advice the lady stocked two 14" LMB that were caught in the local lake in late May. I told her that she needed to catch them out, she didn't fish for them until late Sept and called me after she caught 4 LMB that were 14"-15" saying that she only put two in there, why did she catch more than two that were that big? I told her to fish some more and not remove any more LMB but report back what she caught and she caught 10-15 more bass that same size.

So, with a longer growing season like Arkansas, or Georgia, it is possible to get a 3# bass in 7-8 months from fingerling size.

"(3) LMB 158%, 145%, 178% with an avg RW of 160% for the 3."

That's awesome.

I'm new to this and knew nothing about stocking, suspect that I need to add Bluegill as I have not caught any.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=569351#Post569351

I have only caught and measured 1 LMB and it was 15" - 1# 11 oz (92% on RW chart) Stocked 1" bass in June 2023.
Have caught 2 others that were very similar but did not measure and weigh. Not trying to catch them in this heat. but catching several GSF. Catch one at least every 3 casts. Ranging from 4 to 7 inches.

I'm about 3 1/2 hours SW of you

It is interesting to see the growth, and definitely more than I was anticipating. There might be some additional "stuff" going on too, thus reaching out to see if there was anything available on tracking, history, milestones...I'd love to figure out a way to calculate what the future growth looks like and then when those dates approach test and record it. Not celebrating yet for sure. The fish at only 6-7" at this point so they have a looooong way to go to get to where they need to be. Spring 2025 is what I'm really trying to figure out. Probably do a little testing in mid October to get a quick status and then leave them alone until Spring 2025 to confirm how things look.

For the LMB, the fish we stocked were basically 2" (50mm) on May 31,2024. I did not measure all of them but they all appeared very close in size when we stocked on 05.31.24. Took the measured length on day of catch and subtracted the 50mm then divided it by the number of days between stocking and catch. That number was my "Optional Tag" number for total length increase per day avg.

For future growth would it be fair to take length increase per day avg and apply it to the fish?
Avg growth rate per day on the fish 1.68mm.
68 Days (Oct 19) x 1.68mm = 114.24mm (4.5"). - Date from last sample data used
6.57" (Avg fish length of the 3 LMB) + 4.5" = 11.07"

11.1" fish on the tracker with a 161% avg RW = 1.09lb LMB.

I'm using the Pond Boss Fish Tracker that Mr Lusk forwarded to me. Measuring Length in mm and weight in grams when the fish are caught. I do have to convert the grams to decimal pounds but that's easy enough on Siri or a calculator on the google. The spreadsheet does the rest of the heavy lifting on calculations from there.

I'm assuming that Winter Growth rates are different than Spring - Fall. Not sure how to calculate what the fish could potentially look like next spring (assuming they both don't die and have adequate food).

Awesome results in your pond Boondoggle!

I wonder if there is any sampling bias when you are only examining bass caught by fishing?

With no larger predators in the pond, I suspect the most aggressive bass are the ones that are growing the fastest. The most aggressive bass are also the first ones to pounce on your lure.

However, I am pretty sure you have so much good forage in there right now, that even the "shy" bass are getting their feedbag on.

Yours are growing very well, Like you, I have supplemental feeding, can’t tell if the LMB are eating the food or just the forage that is eating the pellets 🤷🏼‍♂️.
Mine were stocked 10/15/23, Not much growth over the winter. They still looked pretty small when I first saw them in April 27, last photo, should have gotten a weight and measure
These 2 were 11” - 1.03# (7/10/24) and 12” - 1.28# (7/11/24) so definitely not the same growth rate.
FWIW the SMB are growing at about 85% of the rate

"With no larger predators in the pond, I suspect the most aggressive bass are the ones that are growing the fastest. The most aggressive bass are also the first ones to pounce on your lure."

When we stocked I think these guys were in range of some predation and assuming that we don't have the original 50. They were pretty small.
(100) 4-7" YP were stocked on March 18 by our good friend Snipe. I've only seen one of the YP since stocking. It managed to swim into the "everything but crawdad trap" and was 8-1/2" running 131%RW. Not sure if these guys pulled off a successful spawn or not.
When Snipe brought the YP out we also had (1) SMB and (1) SAE in the tank that got put in the water as bonus fish. When we were out sampling LMB and BG last time on 8/12 I was messing around with a BG at the scale and tape when Mrs Boondoggle started hooting and hollering about this fish on the end of the line. As it turned out....She had caught the only SMB in the pond that was 8-1/2" and .54lbs. Ironically, that fish was caught less than 10' from where it was stocked in the pond.

I think the LMB are currently safe from predation with the exception of the Heron(s). Wouldn't be surprised if we didn't lose a few to the YP, SMB or SAE though.

I remember that post. You have had some good success out of the gate with those fish. Did you see the LMB spawn this year or do you think the first time they spawn in next year?

Any idea what your stocking ratio was for Forage:LMB?

Any supplemental forage planned or already put in?

I’ve got 50 of Snipes SMB. Seems like yours are growing better than mine
Pretty confident they did not spawn this year. At no point have I seen any babies and never caught one that looked like it wanted to.
Stocked probably 13:1 on the BG but there was also crawfish and golden shiners stocked at the same time. Way over stocked minnows.
Overall 5 acre pond with 100 LMB and 50 SMB.
Most of the Spring and Summer probably 30%+ of the pond was filled with pond weed so the forage had lots of room to hide. I have seen lots of forage spawning and lots of smaller BG swimming around.

Also 2 feeders that throw 125# a month of MVP.

Will reevaluate next year on supplemental forage but at this point there is so much baby forage swimming around that we may be good

Good RW on all Boondoggle. Notice how the longest fish has the lowest RW but the greatest weight and greatest gain. Its growing fast and RW is not a problem. It is not an inferior fish just cause its RW is lower. Definitely eating more than the others. Pretty cool to see 178 on one of your fish. Dottie was at one time 182 and IIRC the Texas Record was 178 exactly. There a few other examples of >170 RW as state records. They don't get much higher than that AFAIK.

I've heard some really good things about Snipes SMB. Pretty cool that you were able to get both LMB and SMB in the pond. We literally only have one of them, but it was priceless to hear the wife hoot and holler about the monster tugging at her line.

So, 2025 is your 1st spawn on the LMB. Not a bad thing at all there. Forage should be really established by then I would think.

Fantastic on seeing all the small BG. That is going to pay dividends at some point in the future for sure. MVP gonna turn them into little piranha for sure.

All three of the LMB were caught from different areas of the pond and they each picked out some choice real-estate for sure. Pickerel Weed / Lily on the first guy, mostly submerged laydown tree for the second, and the 178% fish was out on the tip of the rip-rap peninsula. I'm betting that third guy is making good use of the large chunk rocks and cuts in the bottom for ambush or shopping at the rip-rap for groceries.

Totally pleased with all three of those fish. Hopefully their brothers and sisters, more so on the sisters, are in there fat and happy too.

Thanks for the info on the RW's. That's new info to me for sure.

No more sampling scheduled until Oct or possibly water temps at 60ish for me. Hoping to see 10"+ and maintaining close to current on RW's.

While on new ponds and/or new stocking, we have a pretty good idea what year One looks like. What can we expect out of year 2, say August 2025? Assuming water, forage and growing conditions are similar

My "expert" opinion: Family fun ... squared!

That's the big question for sure Jason. What I'm trying to do is take a couple of measurements for just a few fish. With the base information from stocking size and a couple of measurements the daily growth rate starts to show a trend or at least an average. No doubt there will be some outliers on such small samples. That trend should help to predict what I need to be looking at for forage, if supplements are needed and potential culling (males for sure).

From Bill Cody's post on Trophy Largemouth Bass Concepts there are a couple of hints in there on growth rates. 1.26-2mm per day. I think BC also said that 1mm per day was still considered good growth.

I don't know if this is maintainable for winter as the fish are not consuming as much food and at some point the fish will become sexually mature where food is split between growth and making babies. That was the reason I was asking about your spawn on the LMB.

In your case, I'd hedge my bets that 2025 will be your 1st year spawn. In my case, I'm not sure. If the fish continue to grow at current 1.66mm per day that would be 10-11" LMB in Oct and very possible 2025 spawn for me too. Oct will be interesting to see what is going on in the pond. I'll do another small sample to see what the LMB look like for length and RW and from there they are back to living a carefree life until next spring.
10" LMB at my current avg RW would be .87lbs
11" LMB at my current avg RW would be 1.1lbs

Are you able to track your avg growth per day from when you stocked?

With your small sample size I’m not sure how accurate your numbers will be.
I go out and catch 2 fish a day, doesn’t matter the species. It’s whatever bites what I’m throwing, Have caught everything from FHM to grass carp. I get length and weigh when I can. The biggest problem I see is the variance from fish to fish. LMB from 11 to 13” on back to back days, RW vary from 112% to 151%, SMB vary more. That’s a huge difference.
The only common is the HSB. You would think I catch the same fish every time LOL. Those guys don’t vary at all

Hard to imagine, but tonight I was thinking about fish and the pond. Had a question come to mind and thought I would see if the experts would chime in with thoughts.

100% of the calories a LMB consumes in the early stages of life go to maintenance and growth. In a high forage situation this leads to great growth rates and RW's. This can only last so long though. At some point - call it 10, 12, 14" the LMB becomes sexually mature and the caloric intake is then split between growth and eggs/sperm / maintenance for the coming spring.

Does this slow the growth, or increase the maintenance needs?

RW's typically suffer a little at the transition or they can continue all the way through the LMB's life as long as the forage is present?

I think both of these are great questions. I've asked these questions as well. With regard to the production of gametes and the energies expended mating and protecting young, it is very reasonable that such carry a cost of energy that was prior consumed and is therefore lost. There is likely an inefficiency introduced.

The way I see growth is that there are maximum rates of building frame. One cannot grow a 20" LMB in one year (but a 13" 2lb LMB is possible). There seems also to be a limit to the excess weight that can be put on a frame. The highest RW that I have knowledge of is ~182. I have wondered why. But I suspect that when a fish reaches such a threshold the consumption slows down to be in balance with that maximum. To be sure, different individuals have something unique to them that governs its own limits of growth. If it can eat all it needs to fulfill the energy consumption required to reach that limit, then its greatest potential will be attained. But each fish is different and there is variation where like people each has a different potential growth track and a different actual growth track.

There is daily maintenance cost that is largely a function of the weight/gross energy of the fish. So in as much as this is true, when a female builds eggs, she also increases her daily energy needs for maintenance while she carries them. IOWs she must maintain egg mass too. So after she lays them, her daily energy needs also drop. This does have the effect of increasing the efficiency of following consumption. IOWs, dropping the maintenance cost of maintaining eggs helps her gain the weight back. In fact, at the same temperature, the same consumption required to maintain her with the eggs will grow her after laying them to the same weight she was before (eventually ... with growth slowing as the limit of maintenance is reached).

Every now and then we talk about compensatory feeding where fish are denied food and then subsequently utilize food more efficiently than if not denied food. From the stand point of energetics, this can in part be explained by the loss of body mass resulting from being denied food. It lowers the maintenance need and increases the excess energy consumed that can be converted to gain. So by and large, fish can recover from periods of food shortage better than one may otherwise imagine. The cost of maintaining body mass is not inconsequential and according to the math of energy theory when applied in simulation, it takes similar amounts of energy to attain the same body mass over a fixed period of time. IOWs, consider two fish one weighing 1 lb and another weighting 1.5 lbs. Both gain to 2.5 lbs over the same conditions and length of time. So the first fish gains 1.5 lbs and the second fish gains 1 lbs. When I simulate this under constant daily rate of gain, the consumption varies by less than 3%. IOWs it takes very nearly the same amount of forage to grow either fish to 2.5 lbs.

That was definitely an eye opener for me. It's always a good time to feed LMB. Don't ever think all is lost due a loss of RW unless the cause is disease or something that cannot be overcome with forage. According to energetics, LMB will recover so long as they consume the forage needed to do so.

jpsdad, fascinating discussion here. Would you compare/contrast the weight gain and/or weight recovery expected or observed among bass that have temporarily been food limited and bass that are considered "stunted"?
Thanks. I hope my question is clear.

4CP,

My sensibility is that being stunted one should have low expectations. But then I have only one experience and it is not consistent with that. I have moved severely stunted LMB to a pond with no competition and abundant prey and seen them mark growth that is comparable to LMB of much younger age but of similar length. The only way can make sense of it is that consumption limitation (specific consumption - weight prey consumed per unit body weight per unit time) may have more do with the length of LMB than their age. By this I mean fish of same length seem to have a similar propensity to consume and will consume comparably regardless of their age.

An LMB that has had an extended period (eg several years) of slow growth will never catch up to siblings that were stocked where food was abundant and growth unhindered. How big one could get would depend a lot on how old it is, how old it could live, whether it stays in good health, and especially it will depend on how much it consumes. It will grow such that growth reflects how much it eats. One can't make them eat any more than they want to or they are able to... much like Boondoggles reference to horses and water drinking. But I will add this. I think wanting to eat is usually less of a problem for growth than access to forage.

It was bothering me a bit that the fish we had sampled were basically "off the chart", ie too small for the tracker to plot/graph. Appears as though pretty much the same data collected yesterday at 3 different zones on the pond. (12) TP caught as well. Largest was 11.5" and majority of them at just a shade of 8".

Updated Recap from the PB tracker. As a note....when I copied and pasted the columns from PB to a new excel file it does break the mm to inch conversion ultimately rounding them to the nearest inch. When that happened all of the RW's reset to the new value. I fixed this with mm / 25.4 to get the correct conversion and that restored the RW to match the PB worksheet.

Fish appear to be maintaining a 1.68+mm per day growth rate. Potentially 11" LMB for mid-October.

Definitely on track!

JPS...I think what you linked on the other thread is almost exactly what I have been trying to figure out. My effort has been to take a few samples to find avg growth rate (mm) and weight (decimal pounds) to find the AVG RW.

From what I'm tracking, 1.68mm per day is my average growth per day for the sampled fish.

It almost sounded as if you could tell from the graph if they were eating at a standard weight or to satiation from there project what fish could potentially weigh at 1yr? Looking to set milestones for Mid Oct and then probably leave them alone until the water warms again in the spring...say April.

I don't know how to apply winter to growth. I'm assuming it will slow.

My stocking occurred on 5/31/24 and the fish were 2". Avg RW of the 6 fish we've sampled 158%