Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Creating habitat HOW DEEP TO PLACE CEDARS FOR CRAPPIE

In my 6 acre pond with 1 acre flooded timber in inlet end of pond I need to know how deep to sink cedars/brush piles for crappie habitat in summer and winter. Seems as tho there are less and less crappie that I�m catching. Will brush piles help the YOY survival (if there is any). I don�t see any signs of young BCP after the first spawn the year that they were stocked (year 5). The crappie that I was catching running 8-11� but never have caught any small 4-6� since the first year. Any insights on what to do to change the population?
Any help would be appreciated

I have dedicated a bunch of my adult life to studying catching crappie.
Seems like the more I figure out about them the more I realize I don't know.
You seldom see any young, even if they seem to have a good hatch, which leads me to believe that they do move out to open water, probably to escape the predators that cover holds. if you catch a juvenile crappie it most always is out in open water and a little ways from cover. I know you do need some shallow cover for them to spawn in, what seems weird to me is the way they congregate around one specific piece of cover for the spawning, you can have a good bit of shallow cover but if you are able to find the few pieces of cover they spawn in the will spawn there year after yr, and ignore another piece just 50 ft away, also yr after yr.
My theory is the deeper cover is not as essential in their survival but if available they will congregate there somewhat, especially in an environment where you do have some bigger fish that might prey on them.
That being said I will be following this thread as I am always wanting to learn more about their habits. most of my ramblings is just theories that I have observed over the years.

So you think 3-5� would be good depth for cedars

They are pelagic.. They tend to hold in open water in the upper water column when young.
If it were me, (it's not) based on what I've seen during electrofishing and fall net samples, Crappie are more cover oriented in winter than they are in summer but utilize the shallow cover during the spawn so I would be more apt to place trees in a depth that represents that and can be used by young at any time and adults during winter.
In my mind, that would be dependent on max depth and I apologize Pat but I don't recall your depth but I do remember the timber in the upper end.
3-5' will be used for spawning if you don't have any other suitable spawning habitat, that will help, but will only be part of the equation. I also feel for BCP, in particular, vertical structure rising through the water column from something like 10-12' up to near the surface will provide many more choices for where they can position in different conditions. 8-10' cedars are great for that if you can tripod them to get the vertical element, I think that's very important vs laying flat on the bottom.

Thanks Snipe
The open side of the pond is 10-12� deep . During the spawn you can catch them in 2-4� water. The flooded timber area is a small creek bed full of trees and brush. So thick that it�s real hard to get in to fish. Probably 5-7� deep tapering out to 0. Probably an acre of water in flooded timber. Most of the fish during summer are caught in open water as you said

If I was placing structure for spawning I would pretty much go from a 1' to 5 ft, I have seen them, for whatever reason, spawning on a little piece of brush that was showing at the surface to less then 4 ft deep and not more then 4' in diameter, pulled 40 males off of it in an hr, a week before the spawn. and the pond had plenty of other seemingly great areas to spawn in.

Wonder if fresh cut cedars would be ok or need dead and brown ones

Also have a big crop of spike rush that I�m not sure will help or hinder. Anybody familiar with this plant and if I should get rid of it or not

Pat, I generally use fresh cut cedars

Dave that�s what I normally do by wasn�t sure. Wonder if youpon would work or if it�s toxic

I have dropped fresh cedar in but have never had much luck with them, or seldom pulled fish off of them, in a lot of ponds if there is any algae present they tend to matt completely over and hardly leave room or openings for fish to maneuver around, I have had some better luck with letting them sit for a yr and shake them up a little and all the needles fall off. take a little more to sink them at that stage. just personal experience tho, nothing scientific.

Both black and white crappies spawn on the pond bottom like bluegills. They make circular nests in the pond bottom in colonies like bluegills do.

Esshup Is it beneficial to have cedars or other brush close to the spawning areas?
Since BCP move out into open water as soon as they swim up I wouldn�t think it would matter other than being a good staging area

Very interesting.. I have never heard this before esshup.
When we do spring electrofishing sampling for gizzard shad, it happens to coincide with the crappie spawn. We run adult shad down the open banks where the electrical current is most effective as it gets near 6' or shallower then blast them. We roll a lot of spawning crappie-mostly males-near the heavy stuff but I don't ever recall rolling them in open cover-free water, always been in the trash.

Snipe maybe they were staging for the spawn.

Studies provide that crappie spawn as deep as 20+ feet and often in and around brush/trees.

Do they need a hard bottom/gravel to spawn?

I have placed well over 100 cedars over the course of 15 years when in my twenties and thirties. All them to attract crappie in the water off my dock on a municipal lake. In conversations with an old-timer I was advised not to sink them with green foliage. He recommended to cut and allow the foliage to brown. Then the foliage can quickly be burned off before sinking them. He claimed that crappie would use them sooner that way. I followed his advice and had good results.

The depth off my dock where I sank them was between 14 and 25 feet deep. A cast was required to reach the brush. The brush served to attract crappie particularly through winter and pre-spawn. It's amazing how densely they will pack into brush. I as well as many friends caught insane numbers of crappie from February to Mid-April off my dock casting to these brush piles. Then they would leave to spawn. I would catch them in weed beds while they spawned in depths of 3 to 6 feet. I would just ride the boat on the weeds which held the boat in place while I daubed a jig through openings in the weeds. They would pack densely in the weed beds much like eshupp described. They do like cover when spawning but also spawn communally it would seem.

Post spawn through Fall I would catch them in open water trolling a sassy shad jigs two to a line. It is possible to catch 4 at time when passing through a school. Once you find a school the challenge then is to keep track of them. During the same period, I caught them after dark from my dock using light to attract hexagenia mayflies and also attract the crappie. There is nothing a crappie like better than a jig tipped with a fat mayfly The summer crappie always seems to be suspended at depths at or above thermocline (in this lake around 12 feet).

It might be important that the species was white crappie and not black crappie.

As for brush. My impression was that it serves more as a resting place for crappie that is most important during cool weather. In warmer weather they range and graze the open water for foraging though likely use brush above the thermocline to rest between foraging forays.

Pat, per your situation of not getting BCP YOY. I am not sure there is way to singly benefit the BCP reproduction. You have a very diverse mix of great fish in your BOW and some occupy space the BCP might fill if only they could. I think I would focus on harvesting those fish that compete most with the BCP.

From the perspective of singly benefitting BCP ... I once read a paper on BCP recruitment that was authored by biologists in Minnesota. They found that rotifer abundance at some time relative to spawn was important to recruitment success. I don't know ... but perhaps a well timed fertilization could help.

Very interesting info jpsdad. My puddle is about 12-13� at full pool, just put in more freckles cut cedar last week and already picking a few off of them. I think I�m bass heavy with two year olds. The banks are full of spike rush out to 3-4�. Last years bloom lasted till the cold hit now have 3� vis and greenish color. Caught a 10� male that was starting to darken up so it won�t be too long before they come in to shallow water.

Crappie do not require hard bottom or gravel although it may be preferred.

I generally don�t think of brush piles for fishing. But, have fished a lot of them in public lakes. To me, they are mostly protection from predation for small fish until they get large enough to make a meal for larger predators.

Lusk says that only 5% of the eggs laid and hatched ever survive their first birthday. So, I like the idea of different sizes of prey/groceries. This stuff is, to me, just Mama Nature at work.

I am going to, soon, cut some cedar limbs and small trees to augment my brush piles. They last about 4 years max in my area.

I don�t fish too close to them because I get hung up too badly. But, I fish somewhere in the vicinity.

Bill ask me to repost this



Here is more on the topic

Thanks Bill C and Ewest for posting
Is it better to have it standing to the surface? Or laying flat piled to near surface

It depends on your goal (what you want it to do). IMO if for fishing then from pond bottom to top. You then can control where on the structure you want to fish. If for protection (fish reproduction, growth and survival) then it can be any way that achieves that purpose. Flat around beds or some of both for young fish survival and growth. If for a safe space around feeders then match to conditions. Best advice is to match the location and goal to the structure placement and fish.

That�s kinda what I figured Eric . In our case it (goal) would be both settings , protection and fishing. Right now I�m concerned that my BCP are not getting any recruitment because of the bass eating them faster than they can reproduce ( if they are there isn�t any sign of any recruitment since the one when they were put in.5 years ago