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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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I'll have a lot of it available here, probably next week. I have had many inquiring on how and where to get some...
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lunker
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Lunker
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Thanks to Scott, I got in touch with Matt and have some on the way. If anyone here in NE wants to try some and doesn't already have some I'd be willing to let them have a few pounds.
Btw Matt comes across as one of the most acomadating people you'll ever talk to. And did his best to talk on my level. Which can't be easy with his vast knowledge.
Just a Pond Boss 'sponge'
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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OP
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I should mention that our HBG, LMB, YP, and HSB were all slow on the take with the Optimal. The BG fed aggressively after 4-5 days, the HBG after 9 days, the YP took almost two weeks, and the LMB and HSB never did show the enthusiasm they do with AQ. Tony, I saw the same thing with the LMB in my pond. But, that was with the Optimal calibration food, which is a small size "worm" shape compared to the AM600 pellet. Now that I'm feeding the newer food which is a larger size, that feeding response has changed to the same response as with AM600 food.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Really wished you could have gotten the Cargill 4512 into the test instead of the TSC stuff. Maybe next time Pat, when the water warms up next spring here, I'll trade you a bag of the Optimal for a bag of the Cargill 4512 that you are using, and run the test again.
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Joined: Jun 2015
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Joined: Jun 2015
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This study showed that AM 500 outgrew Cargill 4512. So if the new feed is outgrowing AM500...then it is outgrowing Cargill 4512. It also showed that 4010 outgrows 4512. Reading this study is why I use AM500. Sean http://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Bluegill-Feed-Trials.pdf
Last edited by Boburk; 09/10/15 05:56 AM.
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Moderator Lunker
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No indication of date on Greg's study. I assume that it was relatively recent.
Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 09/10/15 07:15 AM.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Dave, I'm guessing 2013 by the intern period. Great study, but I'm thinking the Aquamax numbers would be different today.
And IIRC, the current Cargill 1/8' has less than 40% protein right now.
I'm waiting on a reply from Cargill as we speak.
I doubt I'll change from Cargill at this point, because I'm happy with the 4512, but I really like the Optimal evals because of who's doing it. I trust these guys to make a fair and informed decision, and will go so far as to say Tony wouldn't feed free fish food if it didn't achieve the goals he's after. That's about all you can ask of anybody that raises fish.
I've never addressed the Purina issues because I quit feeding it several years ago, but the various problems might turn out to be a very good thing. An opening in any market drives competition, and competition "should" result in more testing, and better products. Optimal seeing an opening in the market is a perfect example of that.
AL
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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IIRC Gregs study was presented at the PB conference in 2013.
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Joined: Oct 2013
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I still don't have a working feeder, so I have no idea why I'm reading about the differences in fish food.. The AquaPro folks still haven't decided what to do about my broken feeder. Sent me a battery, did not help, then sent a timer, that didn't help, now they want me to take it apart and try I new wiring harness to the motors. (After I empty it, and haul it back to the barn.) my back is totally shot right now, so I'm just a little upset with them. I guess it's worked about 20 to 30 days., Ok, rant and hijack over.. Sorry about that.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Jan 2009
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That's one of the reasons why I sell and recommend TH feeders.................
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Joined: Oct 2013
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Joined: Oct 2013
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That's one of the reasons why I sell and recommend TH feeders................. I know!! You keep rubbing it in.. Haha! Just kidding. Actually, I just don't want anyone else to make the same mistake I did.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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As a long-time user and promoter of Purina products, I find this to be a very fascinating thread.
My experience is as follows:
Years ago, I needed a feed to support a huge population of hybrid striped bass. I began to purchase bags of Aquamax. The product was consistent and reliable. It wasn't hard to order, and my fish grew relatively rapidly on it.
After a period of time in which I introduced Aquamax diet to several different species, including bluegill, hybrid striped bass, redear sunfish and channel catfish, I began to suspect that there were some systemic stressors in the food. After fileting some of the bluegill that had been raised on Aquamax, I noticed white colored livers, and a lot of tissue in the abdominal cavity that was different than I was used to. I also found that fish that ate Aquamax grew well and survived well as long as there were other components to their diet, such as fish or invertebrates. But the fish that were subsisting entirely on Aquamax appeared to "top off" at a certain size. After lengthy discussions with experts in the field, there was a general conclusion that part of the process to create the feed may be limiting the fish's ability to live long lives. I never saw ANY scientific data to support or refute these concepts. All evidence was anecdotal, but seemingly consistent between all experts that I talked to.
A couple of years ago, I became a little disenfranchised by the fact that Purina was using my image, and some videos to promote their product, but were very content that I was paying more for their product than anybody else I knew. Apparently there is some type of tear in the fabric of the universe that makes feed more expensive in Lincoln, Nebraska than anywhere else in the world. I am not a person who lives by entitlement, but I still thought maybe there could be some sort of process that would allow me to get fish food for the same price as everybody else, instead of more....but that's another story.
This spring I had some difficulty acquiring my Purina Aquamax, and when I did finally receive it, it looked entirely different. It smelled different, it floated different, and it left no slick on the water. Instead of the inside of the bag smelling like fish, it smelled like burnt toast.
About that time I was contacted by Matt Rayl to try some new feed that he was helping to formulate. I took two identical cages of age-1 redear sunfish, and have been feeding one cage the Purina Aquamax, and the other cage has been getting the Optimal.
I am still in the process of assessing the relative growth rates. I realize there are many factors that affect growth rates--both short and long term--but I will say that after about 10 weeks, the palatability of the Optimal appears extremely good and the growth rates are currently significantly higher with the Optimal. I'm hoping to eventually sacrifice some of these fish to test the livers and other internal organs for signs of disease.
Again, I hope everybody realizes the definition of the term ANECDOTAL...but currently the Optimal feed seems to deliver significantly higher growth rates, better coloration, and more aggressive feedings. Obviously there is no way at ten weeks to really tell what the long term ramifications are. Let's just say I'm VERY OPTIMISTIC that there is a strong new player in the field. Perhaps the folks at Purina can tell us why the new feed smells like burnt toast instead of oily ocean fish. I've even noticed that when you broadcast the new Aquamax that there is no surface slick like I've been seeing for years.
To be perfectly honest, I don't really care who has the best product...I just want to be feeding it to my fish. Life goes by way to fast to not feed the best product. Let's hope that ultimately both products thrive and continue to try to produce the best and healthiest possible fish feed.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Optimal fish.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Bruce.
Was told by two very knowledgeable people in the industry that Purina farmed out the manufacture of their feed on a regular basis. That could explain why there seemed to be a variation in appearence.
The fact that no one that I am aware of from Purina has ever come on this website to promote their product, or respond to questions doesn't say a lot for them.
That said I've had pretty decent luck with their product in the past but did notice the fatty livers as did a few of my aquaculture colleages.
I look forward to getting a formulation for my trout as even feeding them once a day caused them to be built like toads.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Joined: Jun 2015
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I wonder if there will be a trickle down (up?) affect of the optimal. That is, will bass that eat bluegill, that ate optimal, be larger...
Sean
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This is awesome. Would you mind posting the raw data, please? I would like to run some stats on it and make a chart.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I wonder if there will be a trickle down (up?) affect of the optimal. That is, will bass that eat bluegill, that ate optimal, be larger...
Sean I would say this is highly likely.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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I've seen good results with AQ, but my gut tells me something just isn't quite "right"? I don't have the experience or knowledge to pin down what it is, but I feel like the majority of my fish hit a size where progress slows dramatically. Just to be absolutely clear, I have no evidence or data to support this assumption, just observation.
I am comfortable in claiming that the new AQ smells differently, and like Bruce I also do not see the slick on the water that I'm used to. I also think it hydrates differently, in that it appears to take much longer. The pellet center stays harder, longer.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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I've seen good results with AQ, but my gut tells me something just isn't quite "right"? I don't have the experience or knowledge to pin down what it is, but I feel like the majority of my fish hit a size where progress slows dramatically. Just to be absolutely clear, I have no evidence or data to support this assumption, just observation.
I am comfortable in claiming that the new AQ smells differently, and like Bruce I also do not see the slick on the water that I'm used to. I also think it hydrates differently, in that it appears to take much longer. The pellet center stays harder, longer. I am curious, Are the label stated ingredients and protein, lipds, etc. numbers the same as the old AQ?
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
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My question is: do bluegill that grow faster also mature and breed faster? I think that's true, to a degree at least. Experts..... I'm confident the answer will include the phrase "it depends" Cmm
CMM
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Current AQ500 tag: (#3) Notice the bottom where it states "Manufactured for Purina Animal Nutrition LLC" Past AQ500 tags, from the first AQ anomaly back in 2012. Original tag on the right, (#1) confusing newer tag on the left (#2) If anyone's interested, the debate from 2012 can be found here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=305270&page=1 Not trying to imply anything one way or the other, just posting for comparison.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Interesting the new tag does not have fish meal as the first ingredient. The wife says if the dog food bag does not have an animal protein as the first ingredient not to buy it. She says that indicates the animal protein is secondary in quantity.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/10/15 08:21 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Cecil, the new tag is in the top photo, and does have fish meal listed as the first ingredient. The bottom photo shows tags from back in 2012 when the first concerns arose. Sorry for the confusion, didn't do a very good job of explaining that...my bad.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I think the surface water oil slick from the Purina feed was coming from an oil, probably fish oil formulation, that was sprayed on the pellets to impart, A. fish odor, and B. fishy flavor to make the food more palatable.
It will be very interesting and educational to hear the results and hopefully pictures of the fish dissection when Bruce sacrifices one of his test subjects. I suspect that this "test" has already been done by the Optimal fish physiologists when developing the initial trial food formula for feed trial tests of fish grown in recirculating aquaculture systems. This is what physiologists do as part of their job description. If a lack of "white colored livers, and a lot of tissue in the abdominal cavity" is absent, then I suspect Optimal will allow pond fish to live longer and ultimately grow to larger sizes which is one of the goals of the new Optimal food for sunfish.
As on the 'inside track' for this new fish food, I have been told in dealing with this new Optimal food that fish meal is not all the same. There are numerous grades of fish meal, similar to many other products especially food stuffs. Some fish meal is cheap, low quality, 'junky' stuff and not all that healthy for fish growth and digestibility. Because it is fish meal does not make it a quality food product for growing healthy fish. Also when really highly experienced with ingredients required for growing fish, there unique vitamins and minerals usually present in natural foods eaten by fish that make a big difference in final quality of a healthy fish. Knowing about and using these premium ingredients is what separates average, good, and superior food products. Using these specialized ingredients can be very important for the health and life span of the specific animal that is being raised.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/10/15 08:56 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Great points being raised in this thread. As far as lifespan or longevity, has anyone had extended experience with the Optimal? My understanding from communicating with others is that we're all pretty much on the same timeframe. I'm both curious and excited to see what the future brings in this regard. In the meantime, opened my last bags of AQ yesterday. Hopefully It will see me through until feeding ceases for the year, but I have my doubts. I really want to start Optimal fresh next spring, with a clean slate, so I'm trying to hold off switching over to it full time until then.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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