Update: Well I definitely have bullheads and GSF. Been catching both and removing from the old pond. Have lots of 3-4" GSF that I think are on spawning beds because in about 18" of water I can drag a #10 jig hook with about anything on it and get a strike along the shore line. If I don't get him the first time, keep dragging the jig past the same point and 8 times out of 10 will eventually get him. I say him because they are in male spawning colors.
Has caused a change in my goals. Will remove as many GSF and BH as I can, but know it is a hopeless cause. Will just try to minimize their reproduction. Put 4 12" CC and one 9" LMB and about 30 6-7" BG along with some other smaller BG. Will put in a few more LMB as I catch them out of the main pond.
Figure the pond will fill to capacity with some kind of fish, and the more fish I get in there other than GSF and BH, the more desirable fish in comparison to the unwanted fish there will be. In other words, will just try to out-spawn the BH and GSF and put some predators in to control the fry.
My intent was to not put predators in till next year, but with the level of GSF and BH I am catching, figure I can't wait that long or will have a complete pond filled with GSF and BH.
I really don't mind having some BH and GSF in this particular pond. I'll have to say, if nothing else is biting, they will still take a hook. So that is one positive thing about these two species of fish. I just don't want them to dominate the pond. I wouldn't mind some hybrids at all also with the GSF. I have been catching about 5% hybrids out of my main pond compared to the pure BG. They are NICE fish. Fat and some of the biggest and most aggressive I have in the main pond (and I may be catching a higher percentage of them because of their aggressiveness than what is actually representative in the pond total numbers)
Evolving goals. And that is ok. This IS my experimental pond. Glad I don't have this problem in my main pond.
Hey snrub, I was/am in the same situation as you(minus the BH), and wanted to work with what I had. Here is the link to that evolution I went thru. I would agree with you, the more stuff you get in there of the things you want, the more the others will start to suffer. I am now starting to get some hybrids in the pond from the BG I stocked, and I am ok with that(just don't tell Sparkie). I personally think these "change of plans" are good times to really learn. It forces us out of our comfort zones and we discover how much more there is to it all.
OK, thanks for that link. I read your first post and can already guess what is coming. Mouth in those pictures does look big.
I had not run across that thread in all my reading of old posts. Glad you mentioned it. I'll get to the rest of it tonight.
One big problem with just starting over (besides the cost) is it is a long time till a person has catchable size fish. What I already have in there are just getting big enough to be nice size by late this summer.
Ok, read the whole thread fish n chips. Great thread and a lot of info.
You ought to go back in and update that thread and tell us how the fishery is now. Has it turned out like you planned? What things would you have done different? Would you do it over the same way now that you know what you know? etc.
That would help the rest of us even more, knowing what level of success you have achieved trying to use management to overcome adversity rather than starting over by killing off the pond.
Here is fish-n-chips link again as it was kind of small and easily missed above in case someone else wants to read it.
I have a couple fish that came out of the above mentioned pond. I'm wondering if they are pure green sunfish or hybrid. Have been putting all hybrids I catch out of our main pond into the old pond, so these could have been some I put in. Or, they could be some of the original fish from the old pond.
Fish #1 I put back in the pond as I thought it was a hybrid. Mouth did not look big enough (to me) to be pure GSF. The next three pictures are all of fish #2 and it did not go back into the old pond. If it was not pure GSF it looked to me to be very close to it. Very large mouth.
Would like some opinions to the species or hybridization of these two fish.
I want to keep the hybrids to grow them out to nice fish, but want to remove any pure GSF. On the smaller fish I don't seem to have as much problem telling the difference. The GSF large mouth and more slender body compared to a BG seems obvious. But was having trouble with these larger fish telling if they were hybrid or pure GSF.
Snrub, I have a hard time too with identifying a pure GSF/Hybrid as they get a bit older. I throw back the ones that look like hybrids and when they get old enough to tell male/female, then they will get sorted again as per sparkplugs recommendations.
Originally Posted By: snrub
You ought to go back in and update that thread and tell us how the fishery is now. Has it turned out like you planned? What things would you have done different? Would you do it over the same way now that you know what you know? etc.
That would help the rest of us even more, knowing what level of success you have achieved trying to use management to overcome adversity rather than starting over by killing off the pond.
Here is fish-n-chips link again as it was kind of small and easily missed above in case someone else wants to read it.
snrub, I think fish #1 looks like a hybrid, while #2 favors a GSF.....not to say there isn't any BG in there, but it's pretty heavy on the Greenie. I would've culled it as per your plans.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
snrub, I think fish #1 looks like a hybrid, while #2 favors a GSF.....not to say there isn't any BG in there, but it's pretty heavy on the Greenie. I would've culled it as per your plans.
Ok, thanks. The last thing I want to do is to get the x%$#&***% GSF that spawned all those little 3-4" ones I'm catching now............... and throw it back in the pond.
I need to catch a bunch more of my 9" LMB out of the big pond and get them to the old pond and working on those small GSF, but not having a lot of luck catching LMB. Part of the problem is the BG are just so much fun to catch, I kind of ignore fishing specifically for the LMB.
Ok, time for an update on this pond with the GSF and BH problems.
Decided to just live with them and manage around them. Been catching by hook and line and trapping as many GSF and BH as we can. Used a larger fish trap to trap the larger BH's and several minnow traps to trap the smaller GSF. Also the BH spawned and I caught hundreds of the half inch long little black things with a dip net around the shore line.
Abandoned plans for a RES heavy pond. As we are removing the BH and GSF are also catching 4-5" BG out of our big pond and putting them in this pond. Have probably put at least 250 of these BG along with a few larger and smaller ones.
Also have been adding the BG/GSF hybrids to this pond as we catch them out of our big pond. Probably have put about a dozen of the hybrids most in the 7-8" range.
Also caught and added 6 LMB ranging from 9-12" over the last several months. Caught one of those a few days ago that has grown to 14" so the GSF and BH diet it has been on seems to agree with it.
The 200 RES I ordered from the fish truck that turned out to be of questionable pedigree, I put some of them in this pond. There was definitely GSF genes in some of them. They were not very big though so I imagine most of them became GSF fish food. But if some of them survived, they were surely some of them RES and the rest maybe hybrids or maybe just more GSF. Did not figure they could hurt much.
Oh, put about 15 CC from my other pond in also. Hopefully they will eat some of the BH.
Anyway that is the update. Been entertaining trapping/catching BH & GSF while catching small BG to put back in their place.
It will become a traditional LMB, CC, BG pond with some RES, GSF, hybrids and BH for variety. Maybe.
Catching BH fry with a dip net from the shore this summer. All I can catch at this size is this many less to trap and catch by hook and line later. Over a couple of weeks this summer actually caught quite a lot this way. I would estimate in the hundreds.
These in the picture were actually caught in the minnow trap along with a larger BH and several GSF.
Maybe I should just modify my goals for the pond to manage for trophy GSF.
For all those of you interested in trophy GSF, pictures below of my start. I know there will be at least...... oh..... maybe one of you interested. Not mentioning any names, Dave.
More GSF than most pond owners ever want to see in a lifetime.
Well this is a hopeful sign. Normally only catch GSF and BH in the minnow trap.
Today caught this nice little BG fingerling. I have not moved any fish this small from my other pond, so a pretty sure sign this one was from recruitment. Not very many, but it is a start. The GSF is about 2.5-3" so I would guess the little BG a couple inches.
I would be happy with some GSF mix. Been watching for hybrids hoping some would turn up from the RES stocked. Every once in a while I see a GSF that looks like more orange on the ear tab that makes me think some RES in it, but every other feature says pure GSF. So I cull them. If I was to see anything else that indicated hybrid I would keep them. Would really like to see some RES/GSF hybrids in this pond.
Update: Well I definitely have bullheads and GSF. Been catching both and removing from the old pond. Have lots of 3-4" GSF that I think are on spawning beds because in about 18" of water I can drag a #10 jig hook with about anything on it and get a strike along the shore line. If I don't get him the first time, keep dragging the jig past the same point and 8 times out of 10 will eventually get him. I say him because they are in male spawning colors.
Has caused a change in my goals. Will remove as many GSF and BH as I can, but know it is a hopeless cause. Will just try to minimize their reproduction. Put 4 12" CC and one 9" LMB and about 30 6-7" BG along with some other smaller BG. Will put in a few more LMB as I catch them out of the main pond.
Figure the pond will fill to capacity with some kind of fish, and the more fish I get in there other than GSF and BH, the more desirable fish in comparison to the unwanted fish there will be. In other words, will just try to out-spawn the BH and GSF and put some predators in to control the fry.
My intent was to not put predators in till next year, but with the level of GSF and BH I am catching, figure I can't wait that long or will have a complete pond filled with GSF and BH.
I really don't mind having some BH and GSF in this particular pond. I'll have to say, if nothing else is biting, they will still take a hook. So that is one positive thing about these two species of fish. I just don't want them to dominate the pond. I wouldn't mind some hybrids at all also with the GSF. I have been catching about 5% hybrids out of my main pond compared to the pure BG. They are NICE fish. Fat and some of the biggest and most aggressive I have in the main pond (and I may be catching a higher percentage of them because of their aggressiveness than what is actually representative in the pond total numbers)
Evolving goals. And that is ok. This IS my experimental pond. Glad I don't have this problem in my main pond.
I really don't know how others feel about Spotted Bass, but they are bold aggressive rascals. Might be worth trying them out on a small scale to help manage the GSF and BH's? Something to think about?
I doubt that it would make much difference what the type of bass is. In an established pond, with all sizes of bass, the bullheads somehow seem to get and maintain a footing.
However, they control the smaller ones but not the larger ones.
Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 10/22/1405:07 PM.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Here is an article about them, with an interesting map that shows them being native to the very small area of SE Ks I live in. There is a small area of drainage that drains into the Spring River drainage into Missouri that is unique to SE Ks. Although on the map it appears the SE Ks area drains down into Oklahoma which would indicate the Neosho River. So not sure about all that. Anyway, it shows Spotted Bass in my area.
Thanks for the suggestion. The fish has my interest peaked at least.
I would stick with LMB for GSF and BH control, I have to admit having a few spots in the pond would be fun. I caught a few spots at Grand Lake of the Cherokees in northeastern OK earlier this spring while fishing the NBAA national tournament. I would not be surprised if there are some spots around in your area.
Honestly, I think you'll accomplish more with your largemouth than you will a population of spotteds. I entertained the idea of spotteds along with my smallmouth, but found, in admittedly limited sources, that spotteds will outcompete smallies and possibly overpopulate. Definitely intriguing, but buyer beware.
I'm trying walleye with YP to control GSF and it does not work in a good habitat pond. WE and GSF are not compatible as far a predator and good prey item. Note the picture (ewest 10-16-14) above which is a representation from dual minnow traps set in the fishery.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/23/1408:41 AM.
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