Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Where could i get Gizzard shad

I'm going to explore using gizzard shad to improve growth of WAE in my pond but I don't know where to get them. Does anyone know where I can purchase or legally collect them. I will figure out how to transfer and health certify them. Also I live in WI and although im willing to drive it would have to be in the Midwest and Missouri is probably as far as I could go.

Instead of using gizzard shad consider using golden shiners and/or yellow perch even if you have to periodically restock. Also explore adding alternative forage species such as spottail shiners or bluntnose minnows that occur in nearby lakes that have good walleye production. How big is the pond? Consider improving habitat to naturally grow more forage. Gshad tend to grow too big too fast to serve as good forage for WE.

Also be aware some states are touchy about moving fish across state lines without a permit.

Gizzard Shad will definately grow too big for Walleye to use as a food base, and they occupy a different place in the water column, so that would be a poor choice for a forage base. I agree with Bill, YP would be better.

It is important to make decisions , especially high risk/reward ones , based on as much data , evidence , science and practical knowledge as possible.

Prior threads on Gizzard Shad (GShad) , the Nutt article on trophy LMB and our collective PB thoughts (including Bob’s) on the risk and reward of shad, gizzard and threadfin. Some very good science and experience as well as pics and charts in these threads.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=11348&page=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1557&Number=17531#Post17531

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=158807&page=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177656&page=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=187704&page=1 - including Bob’s input

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=202827&page=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=158716&page=1

Here is a pic of northern GShad







At the 20 inch range for these GShad I am not sure any WE can eat them. Plus they suppress reproduction of other more desirable pond species.

Mr.Cody
I plan on using yp as a main food source, and emerald shiners as well. Our pond is not completed but it will be over 300 acres and it will have awesome habitat for natural reproduction on WE as well as other species. the main goal in the lake is lots of large WE. An admittedly tough task. the lake will get cold since we are in Wisconsin and we will experience Gizzy die offs that could possibly control size and abundance in the population? In northern climates (ND,MN, and WI) Gizzies have shown to really boost WE growth in large systems. If Gizz shad are definitely not a good option I'd like to find another high lipid fish as prey that can be bought in large numbers or easily captured and raised. We will evaluate the pond this winter to see if temperature and DO in our deeper areas (>35 ft) will stay within Gizzy thresholds (mainly a minimum of 40 degrees). Let me know if you have any ideas.

IMO 300 acres is a large ecosystem that could support a very diverse food web to grow large WE that does not have to include gizzard shad. Diverse food web is key for healthy larger lake systems. Another important management item is to balance the fishery populations (harvest limits and monitoring populations) based on the overall productivity of the lake. What one thinks is best to have is not necessarily what is best based on what the habitat can best support or produce.

I assume there will be some small streams that will flow into the lake. Those streams will have endemic fishes that can populate the lake. If there are streams that flow into the lake then the wisest fishery approach is to have someone knowledgeable do a fauna survey of those streams for the fish species that are present and ones that will reproduce in the lake. Beneficial species that are absent from the stream survey should be stocked into the lake and allowed to reproduce before adding the full complement of WE. IMO GShad will significantly impact the food web to detract from the other native beneficial forage species that would diversify and enhance the overall fishery not just walleye should be considered for a large lake such as 300ac.

When managed correctly WE will grow to large sizes without gizzard shad. Once introduced you will never get the shad out if they are ever considered undesirable. If the habitat is as good as you say consider adding smelt or some other forage species such as golden shiner, spottail shiner, spotfin shiner, red shiner, blacktail shiner, bluntnose minnow and other lake and or small stream dwelling species that are present in local WI lakes. 300 acres is a large ecosystem that can handle a diverse food web. If the habitat is good and just a few individuals of several beneficial fish species are added and allowed to populate before large numbers of predators are added the food web will be abundant with forage to support a strong WE population. Do good homework and due diligence before compromising forever the lake ecosystem with gizzard shad just because someone thinks gshad lakes grow big walleye.

Gshad are not a requirement for growing big walleye. A diverse well balanced food web and healthy ecosystem and wise fishery management grow big walleye. If one predator eats 4 fish a day, it’s effect on a prey species may be less if more types of prey species overlap in time and space with the predator.

GShad can always be added later if the forage base is not adequate and the ecosystem or ecology of the lake can adequately handle the impact of gshad based on WE recruitment and current fishery balance. If it were my 300 ac lake, I would evaluate alewife and other prey species even annually adding tilapia or threadfin shad as a forage species well before using gshad. IMO Gshad would be the very last resort for fishes to add into a northern WE fishery.

IMO proper and wise fishery management grows big WE not just the presence of gizzard shad.

I second Bills response. In addition, cold water will not reduce the amount of Gizzard shad to any noticeable amount. There's a local Indiana lake that some idiot introduced Gizzard shad to. The BG population suffered, and so did a lot of other fish species. Last DNR gillnet survey showed 60% of the fish biomass in the lake to be Gizzard Shad. That's a complete waste of a lage part of the fishery.

I would NOT stock them in the BOW. You will never get them out, and trying will cost a huge amount of $$$.

Do some homework as to how many pounds of walleye each acre will support based on your lake's productivity or an educated guess average then extrapolate the numbers to 300ac. IMO your main detractor to WE productivity will be presence of other fish reproducing predators that other armature fish stockers or bucket stockers will introduce. Competition from other fish predators will be your biggest problem for growing big walleye not the absence of Ghsad.

IMO a productive lake without other predators such as bass, burbot, or pike could easily grow 50 lbs of walleye per acre. This equates to 15,000 lbs of walleye as average standing stock. Those fish if well managed in terms of numbers will surely produce numerous large walleye. For comparison if other predators are present where walleye have to share the forage base and compete with more abundant reproducing predators then the standing stock of walleye could be around 3-10 lbs per acre which still allows for a lot of walleye for harvest in 300 ac. Keep the other 'trash' predators out and you could have a great walleye fishery without Gshad. It all depends on good, wise management.

Pretty big lake!! A private fishery? What other species or a total list of planned stocked fish do you have? Are there any feeder creeks? 35 is the deepest so what is the average? How much do you think the water table will fluchuate?

Don't get the impression I have to have gizzard shad just playing devils advocate for them more than anything. This is a completely closed private system the water source is freshwater springs and all the land around for along way is privately held by the landowner. Other than some minnows brought in by avian sources I will be completely stocking the fish ecosystem. A rare and amazing opportunity for a fish manager. As far as the gizzard shad and temperature I have it on good authority they may all winter kill. Our surface temp often falls below 34 degrees F and we get between 16and 28 inches of ice in a given winter. However with decent depth they could survive if some areas stay above 40F. Both smelt and alewives have shown negative effects on WE in systems as "small" as this one so I don't want to use those and threadfin will never survive this far north or I'd love to use them. Other types of shiners and native minnows are a great idea but I don't know how to get them in the quantity I need. Also I misspoke earlier about max depth the max here is over 60ft and although it isn't finished I would bet the average depth is more than 18ft. When full. With that info any more ideas? Everything has been helpful so far keep the help coming. Also I'm starting to lean toward not bringing in the Gizzies just to maintane some natural integrity. Oh last though I will have complete control of harvest sizes and people harvesting if that helps.

Thanks

At 60 ft deep there will be plenty of water at 39F during winter. Water from spring inflows may also create warm water refuges of 40-45F maybe even 50F during winter ice cover depending on several factors.

""Other types of shiners and native minnows are a great idea but I don't know how to get them in the quantity I need."" If stocked and allowed to reproduce prior to predators, you will need very few native minnows likely fewer than 50 and as few as 10-12 even in 300 acres. They will find each other to spawn. Nature is great at that feature. As fish manager it is your job to do good appropriate homework and locate and stock appropriate forage species even if you have to collect them yourself. Fishery management is not always about just buying fish.

"Other than some minnows brought in by avian sources..." Your least problem and concern will be avain sources bringing in unwanted fish species. This topic has been extensively discussed on this forum. Scientific research has also looked at this topic. Basically, birds moving fish only occurs if the source water is adjacent to the receiving water. A tornado will bring in more fish to the lake than birds. Biggest source for unwanted fish will be anglers, and 'wana be' biologists, angler bucket stockers, and live bait fishermen that add fish they are using or want to catch in the lake. There will always be those involved people that think they can better stock & manage the lake than yourself. You will learn many other people will think you know nothing about what you are doing.

Having information on good authority can not always be relied on in all instances. Each water body is unique and the fauna and flora do not read the book and respond the same way every time. IMO the "good authority' will not be quite so confident if their advice does not 'work out' as planned.

Back to the shad. They are plankton feeders and sediment feeders and will have a big impact on how the ecosystem functions in terms of primary and secondary productivity and overall water quality of the water body resource. Gshad have big ecological impacts on the ecosystem due to their feeding habits. Shad can have a big impact on the species composition and abundance of the zooplankton community, most often the impact is negative long term. Many LMB waters with shad have water quality issues usually in terms of transparency. Keep in mind walleye usually do best in slightly clearer water of mesotropic conditions. Understand the ecological implications and impacts on the ecosystem of everything you stock in the lake. A good fishery also involves and good resource management.

Have you considered hiring a professional fisheries manager?

Your lake is far larger than many public lakes that have teams of managers. A lake as big as yours was certainly built at considerable expense. To me, given the size of the overall budget, it would seem wise and relatively cheap to hire a professional to help you make these essentially irreversible decisions about species and stocking density. The fish are the least expensive part of the pond and I'd want to get it right.

No matter what you think or wish, all it takes is one well meaning homeowner to dump a few unwanted fish (to you the manager) into the lake. Let them stew a few years and you've got a big mess on your hands. Even minnows being dumped into the lake can be a problem if they are not the correct species.

I was at a property where there was no minnows allowed to be used as bait, only worms and grubs. Even boats that were not kept on the lake had to go thru a $200 cleaning by the property maintenance guys to be allowed on the lake.

If you absolutely have to have minnows used in the lake, make them buy them on-site ONLY, and have strict quality control measures in place to ensure every minnow is the correct species.

Bucket stocking is your biggest contamination concern.

Bocoma. I think he is the fisheries specialist.


Essuph great advice with the minnows sold on site.


Agull240. Keep us posted! This project is fun to hear about.

What do you have stocked so far.

Some professional fishery managers would suggest gshad to grow big walleye. The idea or concept of gshad and big walleye may have come from one of them. Subjective opinions can overpower scientific ecological knowledge especially depending on where the fishery manager was educated and what he or she learned while in school. Extensive experience is also a key component after schooling. There are medical doctors and there are experienced medical specialists both with MDs.

IMO just managing and accurately monitoring the walleye population and strength of each year class in 300 acres will be a big challenge especially if the walleye are recruiting new individuals which is likely to be very sporadic depending on the spawn, hatch, zooplankton community as fry food, and weather of each year. My guess is compared to most other lakes and reservoirs that have walleye, the walleye will have to be annually or periodically stocked to maintain balanced year class strengths. Harvest rates and harvest guidelines will also impact how many walleye will need to be restocked. How do you plan on monitoring annual fry and fingerling survival to determine need for restocking?

For this service of helping you can we come fish your pond?? Hehe

I am the fish manager and I'm not completely ruling out gizzard shad but my purpose of asking on here is to get advice from people who have worked with this shad as we do not have many (approx 2) systems with them. I'm not worried too much about bait bucket stocking you have to walk over a mile through woods to sneak in. We will be very careful with our own bait as well. I really like that suggestion. Just to clear things up a little my pond is still in construction and we are building it from scratch. and nothing is stocked yet. We have a good damn and some water but we are doing habitat work right now. I'm also doing due dillegence on what goes in so I don't mess up and add the wrong thing. I do have concerns that with very low harvest and landowners high expectations we need a lot of prey fish to avoid stunting. Harvest will be from a single land owner, his guests, and terminally I'll kids. Keep the help coming and we shall see about the fishing later.

Comment was ""I do have concerns that with very low harvest and landowners high expectations we need a lot of prey fish to avoid stunting."" You only need a lot of prey fish if you have lots of, or too many predators. Fish managers job is to keep the fishery sampled, monitored and in balance. If your walleye are recruiting it appears you will not have enough anglers to adequately harvest the fish (YP & WE). 300 productive acres will require a lot of fish harvest. Not so much harvest if the system has low productivity, even then it could be a challenge for the numbers of anglers you list.

Walking over a mile to get to a premium fishery is nothing for trespassers and poachers with 4 wheelers. When the word of the fishery becomes common knowledge expect uninvited visitors. It always happens especially in remote locations. Patrolling and monitoring 300 acres will be challenging.

In all honesty I use to walk half a day to sneak in to some old farmers ponds and slay their fish.. these ponds were the holy grail then but now I think about it they were just farm ponds lol and the farmers prolly would of let us fish them if we'd just asked oops.

I hear ya bluegillkiller I've heard of stuff like that a lot. I'll admit that some people may fish it but honestly the way the lake sits it will be very difficult to trespass. I will keep an eye out for bait bucket introduction but I think I will have bigger issues.
One of the goals of the lake is lots of large WE under normal conditions these two things are opposites. However, these are not normal conditions and we are able to do whatever we need to grow fish even if that means supplementing food. I am also able to remove large numbers of fish through netting and other means but I am hoping to not have to do that. Anyways, I am looking for other prey fish (other than perch and emerald shiner) that would be beneficial to the lake. We are able to produce our own WE and perch but we have to be able to buy other species or get enough to raise and put in later.
Here is where the gizzard shad question came in. Gizzies reproduce quickly are high in lipids, don't prefer to feed on fry, and are known to be subject to winter kill lowering abundance annually. If they don't blow up and outgrow WE gape too fastthey seem awesome. What are opinions about this and could the addition of Musky help balance things.
Bill I hope to use fall larval trawls to determine fry success. We will be running a portable fish hatchery and stocking fry back in the lake. Fingerling success will be more difficult in some ways. Since age 0-1 fish probably won't recruit to fyke nets we should use gill nets or electro fishing to get samples. I don't know if I will be able to get either gear for a while so I will probably have to rely on OtC marks on age 2 fish to determine success. I still have to develop our tagging strategy. I would like to fin clip every stocked fish and OtC mark all fry.

Look at the mouth gape of a LMB. Gizzard shad at one year of age could very well be too large for 99% of the Northern LMB to utilize as food. Now compare WE gape to LMB gape. IIRC Bob Lusk says Gizzard shad are great to grow trophy LMB, BUT (and this is the part that I don't remember clearly) 30% or 40% of the LMB in the BOW should be 22"-24" and larger.

Also, if the lake isn't very fertile, you might have a problem keeping phytoplankton and corresponding zooplankton numbers high for successful recruitment of YOY predator fish in their transition from swim-up stage to eating YOY prey fish.

Don't forget to add golden shiners to the mennue . bring up the subject of lakechub suckers. I think they hammer too many small fish and minno s but once a predator gets to size they have abundant food.


What do you mean by portable hatchery? Sounds like fun.

Your musky will eat more YP and walleye than shad due mainly to the niche of each fish and what fish the musky most frequently encounters which usually is not a pelagic species.

I second adding golden shiners and even lake chubsuckers. Do sampling by trapping and seining of minnows in local lakes and streams and select the minnow and shiner species that I mentioned previously. All that have been mentioned will provide a very good diverse forage base. A strong YP population in itself with numerous individuals 8"-11" should provide enough forage to get walleye from 24" category to the 28"-30" category. Lake chubsuckers in addition will improve the chances of numbers of 28"+ WE. Using a slot harvest limit will do a lot to protect and produce walleye bigger than 23". Harvest smaller ones release larger ones and this skews the population toward larger individuals. For a 300 ac fishery, building a few small 1/2 ponds to rear special beneficial forage species not commonally available is a very good investment.

In my opinion a variety of forage sources is a real plus so long as it does not cause population problems (like GShad making up 60% of biomass). More forage sources properly managed means less risk of one source having a problem and leaving you in a forage deficient position. Plus different sizes and species eat different sources of forage at different times and conditions during the year.