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Joined: Apr 2002
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I don't have much to add for this thread. Working with anyone governmental is frustrating. Your pond probably was designed by Soil & Water and approved by the state which is why they are involved. Once they have you on record they are always in the "loop". I'll be back later after I look something up.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Thank you for the reply Bill. You're probably right...I was just hoping since it took place in 1966...they would have lost the paperwork!
If you know of any PE's in the area, let me know.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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There is a home owner association near me that have two ponds one 7.5 ac and another 16 ac. Both use cement spillways for water release into Maumee River. No overflow piping. http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Bowling-Green-OH/pmf,pf_pt/house_type/23789_rid/days_sort/41.443768,-83.777774,41.439385,-83.784458_rect/16_zm/
I think a well designed spillway with large riprap basin that released excess water down your hill would work for a 2 acre pond. Wouldn't a bouder lined spillway be acceptable instead of a cement lined one work? The pond is only 2 acres for God's sake. We are not talking about a high water volume lake situation with a huge 1000acre watershed here.
Since you are an engineer and for this simple project you should be able to design something yourself and get it approved - stamped by the required engineer (PE) whoever that may be in your region. You should be able to do most all the required calculations and design. This is not rocket science. Do some research on spillways and spillway design and see if it won't work for your situation. Often in larger water bodies there are two spillways one major to handle 98% of the water flows and one emergency for the 100yr flood event.
I do have a contact for a soil scientist that used to 'service' NW Ohio. Now retired and consulting. I can get you his contact info if you want it. He may know of professionals to provide assistance.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/25/14 04:48 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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It's the 26.7' dam height that is the root of your troubles, I wouldn't have imagined it was so tall.
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Bill -
I'm a bit nervous about a spillway. Mainly with erosion occurring underneath the concrete or the boulder lined one. It'd be nice to have a waterfall type spillway, but I think it might cause more issues in the long run. I even thought about taking a large diameter pipe, cutting it in half and making a U-shaped trough down the hillside. Like a spillway....sound crazy? It'd be easy to look for leakage and monitor the flow.
I was thinking the siphon design would be easiest and cheapest to install? The link above, pretty much sells the siphon system as a kit, in my view. I can do a quick CAD drawing and hopefully get a PE to sign it and be on my way. I don't know if I will have to do any calculations. Not sure how to address that. ODNR hasn't asked for anything calcs (yet). That might be as simple as referencing flow charts for various pipe diameters and just going one size up to show that there is no issues.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I expect and hope the DNR desires calculations of watershed runoff flow amounts into your pond for historical large or heavy documented rain events in your region. That is just implementing good pre-planning and design. Watershed should be fairly easy to calculate with the aid of a USGS topographic map. The DNR may have on file the original plans and documents relating to design of the original pond. The sunshine law should give you a rights to view or receive copies of those documents. The original documents could save you some time and effort.
Erosion where there will be anticipated water movement is often controlled with concrete riprap. Broken concrete is often available free from concrete contractor's construction projects. You may need to draw down the pond's water level 5 to 8ft to accomplish whatever method you decide to use.
By impounding water you do have a responsibility to protect the receiving stream's integrity by having a sound dam and adequate oversized overflow structure / spillway.
IMO you need to do quite a bit more homework before deciding which plan is the best for you to use.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/25/14 07:23 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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I've been speaking on and off with the DNR about this for about a year, and there has never been a mention of any calculations required. I honestly don't think they want to know the watershed runoff flow amounts. (However, I agree with you that perhaps they should)
However, flow rates of the proposed system would likely be required.
I currently have a riprap where my current drain is. It would have to expand if I were to do a large spillway. However, there really is a very small volume of water that goes through that pipe.
I agree, more homework is needed, as I haven't decided on anything yet. I'm completely open to ideas. So far however, the siphon seems like the most reasonable, and cost effective method.
Otherwise, honestly, the pond does not add enough value to me, to make it worth $20k or another high expense repair.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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See added notes in my previous post about original documents at the DNR. IMO a well designed spillway will handle and discharge a lot more water volume compared to a overflow pipe. However the overflow pipe allows slow release vs rapid release of a spillway. One has to consider the volume capability of the receiving stream.
Mike Otto of Pond Boss magazine wrote an article in the magazine about spillways and their design. Let me see if I can find that article in a back issue.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Here are some of the information items that I greened about spillways. The first section is lists of fairly recent general discussion in Pond Boss articles in back issues about spillways and outlet pipes by Mike Otto. Nov-Dec 2007 SPILLWAYS . . AVOID THE FLOOD. Otto looks at various types of spillways, their purposes, and considerations for building them. Fences on spillways are also discussed Jan-Feb 2008. PIPE, PIPE, AND MORE PIPE. Otto discusses the reasons for an overflow pipe compared to a dirt spillway. Included are types of pipe, inlets, compaction around pipes, risers, siphon pipes, anti-seep collars. Nov-Dec 2008 OVERFLOWING WATER KNOWLEDGE…CHOOSING PIPE. Otto tells what to do when drain pipes fail. Includes types of pipe, pipe terms, and varieties. Nov-Dec 2012. PIPE. Otto tells all about types, sizes, best types, and uses of pipe and necessary parts for spillways, overflows, and outlets for ponds – lakes. Covers emergency spillways, and installation advice. A google search yields lots of information about spillway design and construction. YouTube 49 minute video about spillway design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wAljba6FkI had lots more links but lost them in the transfer.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/26/14 12:57 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Thanks Bill. I'll have to do some more reading.
An update from ODNR, on why my dam is a Class III " The height of the dam is measured from the streambed at the downstream toe of the dam to the top of the embankment which yours is greater than 25ft, the other main determining factor is the road that is directly downstream of the dam. It would more than likely be damaged if the dam were to fail which also puts it in class III. I have attached a classification fact sheet to help explain our regulations. "
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Side note...any advice for the cat tails along the dam? The muskrats really enjoy them...
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Use a glyphosate based herbicide that is rated for pond use. Shore-Klear, Refuge. Add an ounce or two of non-ionic surfactant to every gallon of tank mix. follow mixing instructions on the label for the herbicide.
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Hey everybody.
I've noticed that the sink hole on my dam is slowly getting deeper and larger. Enough to where I can notice it over the past month.
It doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy feelings. I don't know what to do.
The previous owner paid the neighbor down the street (excavator) to dig down and repack the dirt a few years back. I've learned that much. But it looks like the problem is back.
Obviously there must be a pipe leak since the sink hole is back.
The State doesn't seem to want to be of any help, other than telling me that I need a PE to sign and approve any design before they will even consider it, to let me change or fix anything.
The final option, is drain the pond and be done with the anxiety. I'm not a fan of this option, the pond is pretty, it's nice to watch the wild life, but it's not worth the anxiety either.
I really don't know what to do. I'll probably call the local county guy and tell him what I think is going on. I haven't spoke with him yet. He will either help me, or it will open a can of worms and the state will want everything fixed immediately.
Well, I'm not spending a ton of money on the pond, I just can't afford it.
I'm pretty stressed and pretty disappointed...
If anyone has any suggestions (especially if you are from Ohio) I would appreciate it.
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Joined: Jun 2010
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I'd siphon the pond down below the inlet. After you do that there should be zero water flow. If there is any at all the pipe is leaking.
If you stop flow then you stop erosion. Since the water is not leaking out around the outside of the pipe that end is still sealed. I'd consider trimming off that bottom end and welding on a cap.
Then I might mix up loose concrete and fill that pipe.
Then run a pipe at water level through the dam, and run it down the face to the bottom. A 12 inch pipe will move one heck of a lot of water. On the pond end put on a tee followed by an elbow, both pointed up.
Last edited by garryc; 04/23/14 10:37 PM.
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That's exactly what I want to do. I can do all of that myself.
Problem is, the state says that my pond is a class III and that I need to hire a Professional Engineer to design and stamp everything, then I have to pay the state to review and monitor the installation....it's way overkill for a pond this small.
The ONLY reason I am a Class III is because my dam height is "26.5 ft" so they say. Anything over 25 makes it a class III. The height is from the base of the outlet to the top of the dam.
So you could have a 10 ft deep pond and a 26.5ft tall dam, and still be a class III...that is essentially what I have...
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Back-fill the area below the dam with several feet of material. Put up the classic sign "Clean Fill Wanted" and perhaps that will resolve the issue? Bring the base of the dam up quite a lot that way.
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That's what I want to point out, is that I could do what you stated. Or point out that my pond could be 1 foot deep and still be a class III with their regulations.
If I can get them to de-regulate, I can add the overflow without any fuss.
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Actually, if I could just find a PE to sign off on a simple drawing showing the proposed new drain pipe, I would probably be okay. However, I'm having trouble finding a P.E.
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What about lowering the top of the dam by 2'? Would that drop you below the class 3? Push the top of the dam down to the bottom and raise that area by two more feet. Do you need a permit to do that? After that's all done, plug the old drain and install a drain that would not make the pond fall in their permit range.
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I'm very sorry you are having an issue with your new pond. From the arial picture your place looks amazing. I too have a new pond and would be so bummed if I was faced with what you are. I wish you all the best on this endeavor.
Realizing I have no idea what I'm saying....
A year or so ago the city brought in a very large truck with a lot of hoses and stuff. They were redoing the sewage pipes from the inside. They never tore up a street. I have absolutely no idea how they did it. But my understanding is they fixed old drain pipes from the inside.
Best of luck
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Cold, ODNR supposedly maintains a list of PE's they consider qualified...ask for, or search online for that information.
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