Hello All, greetings from the Pheasant hunting capital of the world, Winner, South Dakota(please excuse the possible copyright infringement). I know I read this all the time in other posts, but what a wonderful site the Pond Boss Forum folks have put together. Thank you for all of your help and wonderful idea's. This thread will be somewhat similar to many other threads, but like all ponds will have its own twists and turns.
To start with, I have a newly renovated old Work Project Administration dam built in the 1930's, approximately 6.5 acres, 1/3 mile long (so longer than wide), average depth of 8 feet, with deepest areas being around 15 feet. The main dam has an old rock face along it. At some point the main dam failed and over the years several smaller ponds and dugouts were built within the banks of the original dam. When I purchased the property the original dam and most of the dugouts were dry and silted in.
I planted intermediate wheat and tall wheat grass in the original basins, repaired the wash out in the face of the dam and raised the height by two feet, and removed many yards of silt. I left a large area at the head of the pond very shallow, with grass in it to try and capture future silt issues. I also did many improvements in the draw above the pond to reduce erosion and slow down waterflow during large rain events (cause of original dam failure). The finished pond has a main area off the original WPA dam of 3.5 acres with a maximum depth of 12 foot. The bottom is comprised of wheat grasses that were approximately 4 foot tall and a few years old when water finally began filling the pond. The main pond connects with the remaining ponds through a 15 foot wide waterway that runs along the east side of one of the four dugout dams and is approximately 3.5 feet deep. I left the dams of the remaining four ponds in the new pond to create more areas for underwater plant cover and nesting. The remaining 4 ponds average .75 acres each. Three of them have maximum depths of 15 feet and are connected to one another through the shallower pond. This pond has a maximum depth of 4 feet, and average depth is 3 feet, and is covered in wheat grasses. All pond work was completed in late spring of 2012. Due to the drought the main pond did not receive any runoff and remained dry throughout the year. The three deeper smaller ponds all filled up during the drought of 2012 from underground springs, but did not have enough flow to fill up the whole pond. With the 2013 snow melt the main pond filled up and connected all area's. I haven't read much about leaving grasses in the bottom of ponds for more cover so I hope this was not mistake. I also haven't read of anyone patching together ponds, so I hope the shallow area's betweem them aren't going to cause problems. I know I am posting under the fish stocking area, so construction input may not be appropriate, but I wanted to provide information on what I will be stocking into.
My goal for the pond is a place for me to spend time fishing with my wife and kids, and family friends. I would like to be able to catch and keep many pounds of panfish, and walleye and to have quick bites for the kids. We will also be doing a lot of ice fishing. I stocked many pounds of FH into the pond in the spring of 2013, and one of the dugouts already had FH and GSF. I know I read some threads saying GSF were ok baitfish for larger predators, but have noticed lately that they seem to be more frowned upon. I will have a lot of them now since I'm sure they spawned this spring. I would like to have BCP, YP, BG, RES, WE. For forage I am going to add PK shrimp, continue to try and maintain FH, and add BNM if I can trap or purchase some. I know Bill Cody recommended another minnow beyond the BNM, but I cannot remember the name. I know everyone will say no BCP, but they are so delicious. I may be willing to forego BCP as I am concerned I am trying to stock to many predators and not enough forage, but I would love to have the problem of trying to manage them in a small pond. Will I need to add LMB or HSB to try and control the GSF, BG, or can continued stocking of larger WE control them? Since I already have GSF should I forego adding BG? What size would the WE need to be to outcompete GSF, and BG? My primary goal is pounds of panfish and quick bites for kids, not trophies. Can WE be my apex predator in a pond like this, or will I need to add LMB? Do I need to be doing anything else for forage fish? Suggestions on places in SD close to me to purchase fish would also be appreciated. Valentine, Nebraska appears to be the closest, but then I am required to go through the state to get approval to transfer across state lines. Anyone have any knowledge on South Dakota fisheries?
Lastly, for cover there is a lot of flooded logs, shrubs, wheat grasses I planted, APW I have planted, and the rock face of the dam. I was wondering if there was a benefit to also planting baby pondweed since I have APW? I am also planning on trying to order CEG to get a little more cover in water deeper than APW and as a little diversification to APW. Any thoughts or experience on that in South Dakota, plus places people have had good experience receiving CEG from? I will also be building more fish habitat and egg laying structure for FHM, YP and BCP (maybe BG if suggested). Would love to be able to create WE reproduction in my pond on the rock face of the dam, but have not heard of much success of WE reproduction in ponds w/out creeks flowing into them.
Sorry about being so wordy, but I have been lurking here collecting information and trying to go on my own for a long time, and finally feel a need to reach out for a little help as I approach a large step in the life of my pond. Thanks for any help, suggestions or experiences that you can relate. I will keep you informed as the pond continues to progress.
Welcome to the site Joelleye. I can,t do much to answer your questions but I am sure others here will. Enjoy your pheasants, I really miss hunting them.
Writing my first post helped me clarify a lot of my thoughts on my pond. I understand why many of the pro's on here suggest having a journal for each pond. Since my post I have been doing a lot more reading. I will definitely be leaving crappie out for now, primarily because of the inconsistency of their spawn.
It appears I am going to have enough problems trying to manage the GSF my pond is starting with. Should I go forward with stocking other fish, primarily the WE, YP, RES, and potentially BG? Or should I kill all the GSF in the pond now and start fresh with FH, BNM, and PK Shrimp?
Hang tight for awhile to see what the pros think about your stocking plans.
I would be leery of adding BG without LMB. BUT..if you add LMB, then the YP will suffer or vanish. Then you want it fun for kids. I wonder if the GSF are plentiful, would that be fun for kids like a BG pond? The GSF then might be forage for the walleye (I don't know, but throwing it out there). Wait and see what others might come up with. The HSB will have to get really big before they can start eating small BG, and then they won't keep up. Look for some old posts by TJ who has BG and HSB and SMB, they are informative.
You are right, the more you read here, the better off you will be. Lots to learn. Take your time with it, once fish are in it's sometimes hard to reverse that impromptu decision. Think twice, stock once.
I received a list of private fish hatcheries in south dakota from my local South Dakota Game Fish and Parks officer. I have attached a copy of the list below for anyone interested in SD. Due to location, familiarity and fish available, I will probably utilize Jack Hansen. He is about 2.5 hours from me, with the other hatcheries being about 4 hours drive. I have spoken with Jack, and he thought we could get some bigger WE(6-10")early this spring stocked at 6-10/acre to help control the GSF, and some bigger YP (8-10") also stocked at 20/acre. These YP should be ready to spawn. He didn't have any RES, so I am still on the lookout for those. Jack will be supplying large numbers of fry to stock as well, WE at 100/acre and YP at 150/acre. I have touched base with TJ regarding PK Shrimp from Fattig fish farms. Hopefully he might be doing a group order again, which is an awesome opportunity to get a large group discount for people. It looks like things are moving forward. I have been out on the ice trapping and no big GSF to report, just 3-4". I was afraid some might have grown larger on all the FHM, but they still seem stunted.
joelleye, please send a private message to esshup or Bill Cody. They are real experts and I'm sure they would be able to contribute to your stocking plan.
About two weeks ago we unfortunately lost our real expert in what you are trying to do in your geographical area, and with those particular fish species. We lost our longtime friend and walleye/SD expert, Dr. Dave Willis from SDSU.
But, we have a number of others in Nebraska who seem to be doing something similar to what you are trying to achieve. Hopefully they will pop in and give some advice. Certainly, Bill Cody knows an awful lot about Walleye and Yellow Perch also, even if he is well east of you in Ohio.
I too would caution against the black crappie in your size water. It may be big enough, but they are unpredictable enough that they could cause you some real balance problems in a few years. I'd feel a lot safer relying on the perch and bluegill for my panfish meals. With proper management, they should do extremely well in your area.
The rest of your plan seems basically sound and well planned. The walleye and yellow perch may not provide quite enough predation, but that can be dealt with.
You may also be a little bit too north / too cold for successful redear sunfish. Maybe the boys in Nebraska can assist in that area.
Dwight -- just over the Minnesota line, has northern pike as his top line predators in his pond, which is somewhat bigger than yours. He has some personal commitments right now that will probably keep him away from the forum for a few weeks, but maybe one of his regular fishing buddies, like "The Stick", can provide some guidance.
I'm sorry you aren't getting much support and advice right now. Things get kind of slow and sometimes a little crazy on the forum this time of year as cabin fever sets in. Most of us, including people who don't usually experience it, are iced in this winter.
But don't go away -- you will get some good advice before the ice goes out.
Reviewing your post - cool looking place, congrats on the launch of your project. What an exciting time for you and your family.
OK, your goals are harvest and year round fishing with friends and family.
You mention you flooded some dugout ponds to incorporate into your newly constructed larger pond. I worry about the resident fishery of one of the smaller ponds - you noted GSF - what else? Nothing...are you sure? No, no one ever can be certain. That's why probably the wisest course of action would have been to drain and nuke with rotenone or lime and start with a clean slate. For the sake of this post, let's just assume GSF were the only species present in the pond. Just bear in mind the presence of certain species can make achieving fishery goals down the line very difficult or impossible - that's why I mention the importance of starting with tabula rasa.
My feedback on species on your wishlist:
Crappie will likely serve as a management issue for you down the road without intensive management. This includes trapping, seining, and heavy angling pressure/harvest - and still that might not be enough. I advise against stocking crappie without a dense population of apex predators present with gape capabilities to handle 4-6" stunted fish. Presence of LMB and NP might make them feasible.
RES are risky that far North. I wouldn't stake my fishery on RES serving as my primary panfish in SD - too risky. You might make it for 2-3 years then have winter kill.
BG are a panfish option, but if you opt for SMB/YP/WE as your predator fish, they will likely be unsuccessful as BG population management tools due to their gape limitations. BG population will likely stunt at 4-6".
PS are an option - they have higher fecundity than RES, but lower than BG I believe, and attain a smaller top end size. They may be easier to manage than BG should you choose SMB/WE/YP as predators.
SMB, WE, YP, HSB, NP and LMB are all options depending on your goals.
If you were my client, these are the fishery options I would recommend:
I'd recommend installing at least one feeder to help boost the YP, SMB, HSB and GSH. You could opt for BG as panfish option, but I believe they'll present more of a management challenge than PS. You'll need to supplementally ladder stock HSB and WE annually to provide several year classes and replace your harvest. If you don't see SMB recruitment, you'll need to add areas of rock to serve as spawning bed areas or supplementally stock.
2. BG, YP, HSB, NP, LMB, BCP, GSH [you can try, likely won't make it], Crays, Grass Shrimp
I don't have any experience managing a fishery like this, but have fished some BOWS with these species present and they eventually achieve some kind of balance - but there's always a tradeoff. I think the combination of NP, LMB, and HSB could help manage the BG and BCP population, but will also hammer the YP hard - perhaps leading to extirpation. You could end up with a NP, LMB, BG or BCP population management issue with which to deal - but it's an option if you must have BCP. You'll need an apex predator present with appropriate gape to prey on 4-8" BCP. That's where the LMB and NP play a role.
If you were my client, I'd recommend option 1. If it's not achieving your goals, you can always stock a few BG, LMB, and NP and change directions. However, you can't revert to option 1 from option 2 unless you rotenone and start from scratch.
You shouldn't have any issues sourcing these fish in SD, but if you need help let me know. I always raise SMB annually, and will begin YP this Spring, too. I'm also here to help on the GSH and Grass Shrimp - doing group orders on both this Spring for several guys.
Hope some of this helps...let us know what questions you have. At this point you have to make some decisions on what you can sacrifice from your original fishery design. I have a fishery much like option 1, and it's very rewarding on both the ice and open water. Allows for harvest and plenty of angling return.
If you decide on a direction, our next segment will focus on a stocking strategy and approximate costs. Exciting times - can't wait to see how things develop for you!
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Jolleye, looks like you will end up with a great pond with lots of diversity. Congrats.
One possibility maybe. If the BOW is not full and it is not too late, perhaps you might consider building up one of the old dams high enough with an overflow so you end up with two smaller BOW instead of just one large. Maybe you could accomplish one fairly small one with most of the water in the larger.
Here is my thinking. This way you would have two management options for what fish you put in each. The BOW that contains the original fish could be stocked and managed in one direction. The "clean" new part could be managed differently.
This is not a suggestion. Just a thought about another option. That is a pretty big BOW you have, and I have heard others on this forum say they would rather have multiple smaller BOW than one large. I do not have the experience of knowledge to say one way or the other. You may even too far past a point where you could consider it.
I just bring it up for you thought processes and discussion purposes.
Lots to consider with this topic. I will comment on your subjects in order of my knowledge about the subjects. 1. Corkscrew eelgrass CEG. I am pretty sure it will not grow in your SD climate - too cold, too long. Look in local lakes for native short growing submerged plants. If your water is fairly soft (low alkalinity) look in local lakes for other species of short plants in the shallows and beach areas plants similar to lake quillwort technical name Isotes lacustris. Saggitaria subulata (dwarf saggitaria) may grow in your climate? Plant some spike rush in your shallow waterways so these areas are not choked with cattails and other nuisance vegetation. I prefer creeping spike rush (Eleocharis palustris) for shallow water and Least spike rush (E. acicularis)for shorelines. All your shallow water areas will tend to become weed infested. Get minimal or less problematic plants established early. http://www.anderssalesjo.com/?id=2606&lang=42 https://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/pteridophytes/isolac01.htm https://gobotany.newenglandwild.org/species/isoetes/lacustris/ http://www.biopix.com/quillwort-isoetes-lacustris_photo-47015.aspx
2. Your flooded wheat grass will not last long, a year at most, as terrestrial grasses as cover and will quickly decompose and provide little long term benefit. Small tree twigs don't even last long when submerged.
3. What is "baby pondweed? I do not recognize the name. Do you have a technical name for it??.
4. Current GSF could become a management problem. You may want to try and manage the fishery with them or kill off and start over. Renovating can always be done later, thus you may want to work with them to learn more about managing with them. Tough decision. Dense weed growths will provide then and all your small fishes shelter, maybe too much shelter, from predation.
5. Initially I would not stock BG if you are mainly interested in having a WE and or SMB fishery. Rely on the GSF as your main sunfish. Since you have GSF, I would seriously consider periodically stocking HBG. They will provide many of the benefits of growing larger panfish. If HSB are fed pellets the GSF will also grow fast to harvestable sizes. a very few YP may learn to eat pellets but don't count on that happening unless you buy pellet trained YP. Backcrossing of HBG with the GSF will likely occur. But since you already have GSF the sunfish community balance is already compromised. HBG will provide big panfish and likely not a lot of more trash panfish than what the GSF alone will contribute.
6. I think the predator species in your pond will need to be numerous almost overpopulated to control sunfish and YP in a pond with fairly large weedy areas. Don't expect your predators to get large when they are numerous enough to adequately control small sunfish in a weedy pond. Think of your predators as smaller fish controlling tools and not larger trophies. With this philosophy I think you should initially stock more larger 8" WE (maybe 40-60/ac) and fewer WE fry. With the 2014 GSF spawn IMO you will need strong predation pressure to control them. GSF are prolific. Supplemental WE stocking should not be fry but fingerlings or 4"-6" ers or larger. I would annually keep adding predators until you see low numbers of young GSF in the summer and fall fish trapping samples. Use minnow traps to monitor your small fish survival. GSF readily enter unbaited fish traps.
7. IMO your YP stocking plan is weak. I would initially never stock YP fry. Since you already have GSF you will have a huge GSF spawn and survival. I would stock at least 100 up to 200YP per acre. Stock all sizes from 2" to the large ones suggested by Jack. If you can get YP before they spawn stock more of the larger sizes 2"-4" 5"-7" and 8"-10. Skew the numbers toward the large sizes. This will not be cheap but neither will be renovating the pond. You want to have heavy predation on this year's spawn esp the GSF spawn.
8. Before adding LMB to control the GSF, which you eventually may have to do, try smallmouths and or HSB. If the smallies do not work then resort to LMB. Weedy areas will hinder predators feeding on small GSF and YP. Which is why I think you will need an over abundance of small maybe stunted predators. Walleye at 14" are just as tasty as 16"-18"ers. Although you may want to protect WE and harvest the larger YP, GSF or maybe HBG. YP can maintain a good population with weeds beds as cover (DrDave Willis personal communication).
9. With abundant GSF you may have to resort to pellet feeding the panfish to get good growth for harvest due to overcrowding of GSF & YP. Note wild YP rarely will eat pellets unless 'trained'.
10. I would not stock BCP unless you revovate the pond. GSF will cause you enough fishery headaches and IMO you do not need overpopulated BCP to add to your stress. I don't have a lot of experience with BCP but I don't think they will provide very much control of your YOY GSF esp in weedy situations.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/10/1410:39 AM. Reason: edits and fixes
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Postscript - One of my reasons for not stocking fish fry is GSF are aggressive and have a large mouth for a sunfish and IMO when abundant small GSF will eat lots of fish fry when fry are small.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Bill, I agree. That one pond with a population of GSF that was stocked with YP, RES, GSH and FHM showed 0 recruitment the next 2 years, and very few stocker FHM remaining. Pond was drained and rotenoned to remove the GSF.
My experience so far is that when GSF are common or abundant they will significantly affect recruitment of most species by preying heavily on fish fry and those up to 1" long. I have pictures of a 5" GSF that ate three 2.0"-2.25" minnows.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Thank you Fish n chips, Catmandoo, TJ, Bocomo, Snrub, Bill Cody and Esshup. I appreciate your responses and information and the time it takes to analyze different ponds. It is great to hear from you all and get your perspectives. Now I have a whole lot more information to absorb, and analyze.
To Snrub's suggestion, I have considered that idea as I read different posts. One idea I liked was using a protected area to raise fry until adjusted to new pond and big enough to be introduced to pond. I have one part that would be very easy to separate, and is currently separated. I have a few other ponds which are completely separate, also, that I could accomplish this in. I liked Bill's idea in a post of a YP only pond.
I like the stocking idea TJ had as his #1, and am leaning towards draining and rotenone. Hard to throw away water in South Dakota. It could fill back up this spring, or in 5 years. I would definitely like to get in on the GSH and Grass Shrimp order. I agree with the you on never knowing what is the pond. The only fish trapped for years was FH, that I used for bait. Then after dam was fixed I started catching GSF. Hopefully no other surprises. As Bill mentioned, the GSF really trap real easy.
Bill, I will review the plant information you supplied and respond when i know more. I like your idea's of getting the shallow area's covered in a good weed. I would hate to have a football field sized cattail area, that used to be somewhat productive. I will need to move quickly on this. I read about baby pondweed at TAMU, and other name is "potamogeton pectinatus". It stays more submerged than APW. We typically have high alkili levels in our soil and water. I really like the HBG idea and feeding them. You are right about the YP #s and sizes for stocking. I typed in fry, but had planned to add larger YP. Per your suggestion, I will not be adding supplemental WE fry, I will add the larger WE for supplemental stocking. I would be more than happy to harvest 14" WE and then replenish via stocking 6-8" or 8-10".
A couple questions on feeding. Should I try to purchase pellet trained YP? Or just feed GSF and HBG? If I am feeding, should I use an aeration system? My pond see's a lot of wind and wave action. I'm keeping my wife up typing in bed, so I had better go for now. Thanks for all the idea's and help.
P.S. My last couple of login's I have been trying to get my I subscribe logo to show up. I have found the link, and the instructions are clear, so I will get it done. Luckily, its way easier to subscribe, than to advertise that i subscribe.
I hate to see you lose precious water - if you don't have a constant source of irrigation, think long about draining and starting over. If it means you might be dry for a few years, that, to me, would not be worth the benefit of a clean slate.
Consider the option of keeping GSF and supplementally stocking HBG per Cody. You keep the water, and will slowly alter your panfish population thru genetics. HBG have gained a lot of respect on the forum the last couple years as a couple guys who really understand how to manage them have demonstrated their merits. I admit my ignorance has abated through their research efforts.
If water is that rare, my advice would be to try and manage your existing fishery [GSF] and still achieve your goals. With resources like PB at your disposal, I am pretty confident we'll get there together.
So, determine your ideal fishery [what species do you want] - then we'll work on specifics on your stocking plan/schedule - starting with fish to stock this Spring. If you have access to local puddles with YP populations, consider investing in a seine or fyke net to collect adult YP to help relieve the fiscal burden of stocking larger fish.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Comments: 1. I don't like Potamogeton pectinatus (Sago "baby" pondweed) quite as well as APW (Amer Pondweed aka Longleaf Pondweed Potamogeon nodosus) because P.pectinatus-Sago tends to grow deeper and denser than APW. Fish have a harder time hunting in Sago compared to APW. Although both are beneficial fish habitat plants. IMO APW provides overall better fish habitat than Sago.
2. If you have separate ponds consider using one of them for the walleye-YP and use the larger 3.5 ac as a bass-BG or bass-GSF-HBG pond. Consider first using SMB-(HSB?) with the GSF-HBG as I have found the SMB-HSB will perform better with HBG-YP than BG. After 5-10 yrs if the pond is not performing add the LMB-BG and the pond will gradually transform into one dominated by LMB-BG. This way you get a wider fishery management experience. Then you can decide which species you prefer for future pond renovations and re-stockings.
3. YP will initially perform better as far as rapid growth if you start with pellet trained stockers. As the YP population ages more and more of the offspring will tend to revert to non-pellet eating fish unless you make a concerted effort maintain high numbers of pellet eating fish.
4. Ponds especially deeper ones (12-20ft+) always tend to perform better overall long term if they are aerated. Best way to determine how well your ponds are mixing due to wind action is to measure the water temperatures every foot deep during early to mid August. If you see rapid temperature decreases of 5F-8F between top and bottom then thermal stratification and usually bottom anoxia is occurring. Aeration should then be seriously considered.
5. Pellet feeding and aeration often go hand-in-hand because the regular addition of pellets increases pond productivity and almost always causes decreased water quality due to increased algae/plant growth, decay, and higher biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). Ponds with higher BOD tend to have more frequent fish kills due to periods of low DO. Low DO often occurs during summer's long stretches of cloudy weather and cool rains. Low DO in winter is caused by excess dead plants and extended ice and snow cover. Shallow northern ponds are most prone to winterkills.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/11/1409:59 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
"I'm keeping my wife up typing in bed, so I had better go for now."
If I ask my wife to type in all my posts on PBF, she would likely tell me to "go fish". Or something to that effect.
One semester of personal typing in high school is probably the only class in high school that I learned something I use almost every day. It is one I did not want to take but the alternatives required were worse. Glad I did.
"One idea I liked was using a protected area to raise fry until adjusted to new pond and big enough to be introduced to pond."
I would like to do this with a handful of Tilipia fry. Maybe raise them in an aquarium till they are big enough to put either in a fenced off area or cage. Would start out with small numbers since I don't know what I am doing.
I got my PK shrimp today from Carol Fattig. All shrimp were alive and looking good. No photo's yet. It is sleeting and snowing here and 31 degrees. Hard to get to the ponds where I would like to release the shrimp so I put them in 50 gallon tank with pond water after equalizing the water temperatures. I have some 100 gallon tanks also so may try and grow out some of the shrimp in the tanks. Hope this current cold weather isn't to hard on them.
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