Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Fishing Pressure?

Then again, some fish never get the message...



Third time's the charm.

It depends, learned hook shyness can likely be instantaneous at times. I can't recall the specific term my bio-psychology professor used but most organisms do learn not to eat a particular food item ever again if they can associate becoming very ill or injured from a single eating experience. All it takes is one very bad eating experience. Think about the last time you had a bad case of food poisoning, how long did it take before you ever tried to to eat that particular food ever again? It is a pretty basic survival mechanism most organisms possess, it's a way of avoiding eating poisonous/injurious food items more than once.

So it depends, not all fish get severely injured or ill from being caught and released but some do. Those that do get injured or ill are the ones that will likely learn instantaneously to never to eat that bait again.

Taste Aversion

What is taste aversion?

Thanks Shorty, that's interesting stuff for sure. To my way of thinking, that sort of leads us back around to that whole, 'conditioned response vs. learning ability' thing again.

Where does an instinctual, necessary for survival response stop, and a cognizant, associative reasoning process begin?

Guys this is going off track. I need to post some of the studies.

Its not IMO learned behavior as in ability to reason. The studies on this show the same fish caught repeatedly. They are not learning as we know it. Those fish keep biting unless they are stressed to much. It takes time to recover after fishing pressure. They have not learned but rather conditioned for a short period of time.

The problem is if the aggressive fish are removed a lot of unwanted things may occur. One is those left are the ones not inclined to bite. Some never bite - they are just to cautious.

I suggest you get the PB issue several back and look at the cutting edge article on aggressive LMB its in the genes. Next issue is a similar (not identical) article on BG.

Thanks again Ewest...I look forward to the next issue of PB.

Since I'm struggling with this concept, let me try another tact. It sounds as though you are suggesting that fish can become conditioned, but only temporarily? By that line of reasoning, is it too far off base to assume that fish are capable of remembering, and, after a time, forgetting?

And if a fish is too cautious to bite, then why doesn't it starve to death? It seems to me that it has to bite something just to survive....how does it know what to bite, and what not to bite, if it's never been conditioned by being caught? Too me, fishing is about fooling the fish into taking my offering...if a fish cannot be fooled, why not? I always assumed it was due to my shortcomings as an angler, in not being able to make a proper presentation, and had I done a better job, I would've caught that fish. I still believe that.

If the fish is truly uncatchable, (too cautious), it almost seems as if it's...smart.....able to distinguish between my offerings and what it HAS to consume to survive?

Please know that I'm not trying to argue, I just cannot seem to wrap my head around the difference between conditioning, and rudimentary learning. I guess I'm just slower than everybody else on this topic.

I will try and find the issue with the LMB info. I'm sure I have it.

[quote=

If you fish, the ones that bite first will always be the catchable ones. If you C&R them, they will get smart. If you keep them, the ones left are hard to catch, creating a genetic line of tough to catch. Seems like a no-win situation. OR, is other methods of harvest a good way to go, like trapping, netting, etc? Would that re-establish the balance of catchabilty?

[/quote]

This question was posed in the Q@A section of Pond Boss a few issues back. I don't recall which issue. But Bob addressed the question.

I don't believe this was the Bob's response exactly. But here are a few options.

You have a couple of good options. 1) electroshock to harvest. I realize this may not be realistic to many pond owners as shocking a lake is expensive, but on a 1 acre pond you could potential remove all the fish you need in 1 shocking a year. 2) Add new genetics every few years. These genetics change the gene pool and can potentially add fish that are not as hook shy.
3) Stick with a higher density of Native Bass genetics as opposed to Florida Bass genetics.

What I wonder as well, is if fish get "smarter" with size. As fish grow, do their brains become more complex and able to keep conditioning longer? Can they process visually and through smell better? Will starvation reverse that? I hear of large grass carp being pretty smart, it makes me wonder...

Also I wonder if the scent of a presentation plays a large roll in catch rates. I realized a few years ago that nothing can quell fish from biting like sunscreen. Don't get that on your lure or bait, or you wont catch a thing.

Some birds brains completely reconfigure depending on the season, such as a chickadee to conserve energy and weight. Knowing this makes me wonder how fish brains work. Brains require energy and nutrition to work correctly, and if well fed, are fish smarter?

LMB are not a problem. They need to eat to survive and if you use a 3 or 4 inch BG on a hook you will catch some LMB it's just in their blood they can't stand it they have to strike a easy meal! And like Eric says I think if you leave them alone for a while they start to come back around to biting easier once again. The question is how long do you leave them alone once you caught them?

It's my HSB and BG I am worried about. My HSB all but have figured me out. I put some AM600 on a hook and they will flash at it and turn right around instantly. Almost as if they looked at it and said theres that hook again I am out of here. It's quite amazing really and fustrating!

I only asked about my BG because the last time I went I didn't hardly even have a bite and it has been 7 days since I last fished my pond. I don't know maybe they were all deeper or on beds and did not want to bite? Or maybe they just didn't want to eat at the time I was fishing?

Hence the reason for my question. Is 7 days between fishing not long enough should I wait more like 2 weeks. If BG have short term memory of when they were last hooked how long does that last? 3 days 8 days? 2 weeks?

RC

I hear you on the BG as well. I went fishing on Tuesday which had been at least 2-3 weeks since last time at my pond and all I caught were 3 BG and 1 HBG which I kept all but one of them as you can see from another post of mine.

To me if you have a pond full of BG you should not have any issue getting bites on a piece of Nightcrawler.

What gets me is that it was also the first time ever I did not catch a GSF. Which I guess I was wanting to rid the pond of them anyway but they are fun to catch one every now and then. Plus they make great table fare.

Our BG are in deeper water right now. And whether you consider it temporary conditioning, or a learned response with short term memory , in my opinion BG can become quite wary. I don't however, think this automatically renders them uncatchable...I think in many cases it simply calls for a different approach by the angler.

Well you have to factor in times when fish just are not gonna bite as well as some other days. There are a number of reasons.

1. High Pressure
2. Not hungry at the moment.
3. Could be defending a bed.
4. Blue bird sky day. (Blue bird sky days are some of the worst fishing days I have ever had.)

But basically for those folks who live at their ponds and are close to 1 acre or a bit bigger how much fishing pressure is to much? I am just looking for a general rule of what people think. I know every pond is a bit different but in general what would you say? Once a week? Once every 2 weeks? Once a month?

RC

RC, I'm just not sure that there exists a general answer.

How many fish are in the pond? Assuming that there is one angler, who fishes at the same spot, at the same time of day, using the exact same bait and technique, then the amount of fish present must surely play a role....as an extreme example, if there's 1000 BG in that 1 acre pond, then I think it would take a little while before they became hook shy to the above-mentioned scenario...(same angler, same place and time, same bait)...but if there's one BG in that pond, and you catch it on the first outing, then tomorrow's fishing has the possibility of being a little slow. UNLESS, one of those variables changes. (Time, place, bait, technique, etc.)

Most on here are far wiser than me, so I hope you can get an answer that helps you out. But I think this is one of those areas where the pondmeister must decide for him or herself, based on personal observations at the BOW in question. Too many variables.

RC, personally since there could be so many different variables I've decided I'm not going to over-think this one and fish when I feel the need or desire to fish. Right, wrong or indifferent I won't have a 2-acre pond in my backyard and live off a schedule of when I should or should not fish. Detrimental in the long run? Maybe, but who say's I'll be around tomorrow?

Of course common sense will prevail that if/when it's fished heavily (many anglers) or when I have a "kids day" of fishing, to lay off a while due to pressure, but other than that, if they're not biting that particular day I'll blame it on my angling on hook-shy fish

This has been a great thread and great reading, but with so many other pond-management issues clouding up this little brain of mine, I'm leaving it as,,,,,,, "it depends".

Have a great weekend y'all, and let's go fishin'!

Yeah you may be right spark. Time will tell I guess. I think I am going to start out and limit my folks to 1 time a week at first and see how it goes from there. Or wait till the weekend when I am there with them.

Being hows we are going to keep some of them this coming year and thin the heard.


RC

I think the up and down temps we have had, the feeding, and tilapia have kept most of my fish confused and full.