Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Lorsban?

New information. I thought I smelled something last week....Aphids in the wheat....Lorsban. Chlorpyrifos. Highly toxic to fish, even toxic to some plants. Any chemists? Chlor in chlorpyrifos means "chlorine" basically right? With Fos meaning phosphorous. wouldnt phytoplankton readily take it up only to be nuked by the chlor molecule?

Says it's toxic to some plants such as lettuce

James,

You're probably above and beyond the average knowledge here including myself so don't take it personal if you don't get a response.

So are you saying your fish kill may have had something to do with someone spraying wheat with an pesticide?

Not sure I understand. Not sure how to ID a product by smell. And it seems early for wheat to be sprayed for aphids. And thats not a big normal practice in Missouri in any case. And Lorsban for aphids has a number of other alternatives.

What is your question?

The wheat is ahead of normal here and in Texas. Remember, wheat usually goes dormant for awhile in the winter months but here in Oklahoma we only had three days this winter were the wheat did not grow. I say it fits this year.

I had a strange fish kill. I blamed it on cold rain, and partial turnover.I remembered smelling something that resembled 2,4,d. First my BG died, then my YP, Now my WE are showing up. The water got strangely clear for a turnover.Actually very clear. I'll bet my visibility got to 10 feet.I could stand at the edge, and peer into the water and see the vegetative growth of the pond in the shallower water probably 50 feet out when the sun was right.I have 2 water samples in jars,and looks like tap water.

I inquired, and the wheat on this farm got sprayed for Aphids. Seems Lorsban was used.A rain within 12 hours came on. From what I read, Lorsban is highly toxic to fish. After posting, I researched more, and it's also highly toxic at concentrations of less than 1 ppb to freshwater algae.

Lorsban is "chlorpyrifos". Which would, if my small knowledge of chemistry is accurate, that it kills fish due to being an attacker of the central nervous system, it would also be like pouring chlorine into a murky swimming pool, with a phosphorous base that would increase uptake by vegetative material.

So my kill in my pond was not due to a "turnover" and the remedy an aerator.Or due to my pond being eutrophic.

It was killed off due to frickin Lorsban.

This pond has dealt with MUCH bigger climate changes than what I had a week or so ago.

@ Habitpro My brother and I are the sons of a cropduster.My brother watches his crops very closely. Probably to a fault at times. At the signs of insect infestation, the phones being dialed. Growing up, most generally, most farmers never wanted to spray til the damage was done.Sure bugs would be killed, but the only ones benifitting financially, was the chemical companies and my pappy.This time the fish guys!

It was a very interesting life to say the least.

I remember now, dad never using Lorsban, due to its toxicity to fish, and its resilience.

I'm glad I finally figured out what it was. Now I can breath deep, and take a pill.

But can you prevent the same thing from happening again?

James - Lorsban (chlorpyrifos) is identical to Dursban, but includes a pink pigment to distinguish between the two formulations (the later was canceled for turf applications several years ago).
Chlorpyrifos is an organophosphate(OP) insecticide that targets the nerve synapse of susceptible organisms.
If you've ever witnessed an insect's reaction to OPs, they're basically unable to cancel a nerve impulse once transmitted - revealing the technical mode of action: acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (ie. their wings flap like crazy until the lights go out).
That said, check your pond for signs of aquatic insects. IF any/enough product entered the pond to cause a fish-kill, it is highly unlikely that you'd have any insect larvae (alive) inhabiting the pond.

Cecil, yes I can. If in fact I can scientifically prove that it was the Lorsban first. My water samples taken early on should contain the chemicals. I'll get them to a lab today.

There are other pesticides that can be used. I dont know why these chemicals were chosen this time.I can only assume that the applicator had them on hand. They were probably left over from last years aphid run in the soybeans. I'm assuming that it was due to run off, but may have occured to drift. Stuff happens.My brother was apologetic, and offered to buy me new fish. I look at it like this, it was unintentional, done in ignorance. My hobby is important to me, but his making a living with farming is more important. I'm sure next time more information will be gathered on fish kill

Kelly, thanks for your input. This is what was puzzling me. I initially found dead sunfishes, then a few crawdads washed up.Then I saw tadpoles, then a painted turtle. Any idea how long one should wait before restocking? I know what I've read, but sometimes reality is different.Pond in question has constant flow through due to being springfed. Never less than est. 15 gpm. I'm guessing 2 months depending on PH.

And yes I have seen it. I grew up around Parathion.I remember throwing a large grasshopper into the residuals in the bottom of a bucket.Now that I'm older I understand why dad had rubber clothes and repirators. He looked like a space/frogman.

James did it get all your fish or only those in proximity of the inflow water from the rain?. Or do you think it entered the pond as drift?.

Seems strange a turtle would die bc of a O2 crash...that's strong support of your Lorsban theory.

Do you have a total fish kill? Are you seeing thousands of BG, or just partial?

Im troubled by the thread from perspective that the OP, who has every right to his opinions, cannot prove the product he thinks is the culprit is even involved. Knowing that the product supposedly could only get to the pond through runoff, the opportunity for enough runoff and enough of the insecticide could get into the pond in concentrations high enough to make all these observations happen seems a stretch at best.

Bill, I really believe it was drift more all the time.Or possibly a combo of the 2. I have a fathead pond, that is closer to the wheat than the main pond. It would have been more protected from drift, if the wind were from the north.A north wind would have laid it right into my main pond. We didnt have a gully washer, and the main pond is actually protected from direct runoff. Rain water would have had to run through a siltation pond, through what I call a crappy pond (not crappie)and then in. There are terraces all the way around. Any direct runoff is probably limited to a 8 acre grass buffer zone.

Fatheads are alive and well

I'm going to assume it's going to get the majority of my fish. But the dreaded GSF will make it. I've seen alot of dead ones, but caught a couple small ones last night.

I found a dieing WE at the ponds edge. Belly up, and pectoral fins working, gills moving. Beautiful color. No signs of physicaldamage anywhere. I put it in a bucket, brought it to the house and threw it in an aquarium, with aerators running for the last 2 weeks.It's still alive 24 hours later. Though laying on the bottom. It does the herky jerky once in a while. It is showing signs of nuero disorders I believe.I will put it down in a bit. They are truly a beautiful, beautiful fish. What I've read, fish that have been affected, though still may live for up to 2 weeks, they are doomed. It shuts down the liver and such.

TJ. I assume the numbers of BG are in the thousands. Moslty small ones 2-4 inches. I done a rough count in 1 area, and there were 150 floaters in a 10 foot long area, It's not constant like that all the way around, but with a 3 1/2 bow, that adds up pretty quick. Also I see them on the bottom.

But the world isnt over.I was wanting to start over with new BG genetics, just went about it totally bass-ackwards.

Almost time to do my home finishing touches on my homemade floating dock.Bought some 4x10 sheets of aluminum. Sent them to town, and had them rolled and welded into pontoons. They should be done next week.

I will weld an aluminum frame, place into the water, and add my deck. I'm shooting for 12x20 when finished. I'll post pics when I'm done, and a video of it sinking on the maiden voyage!

I have not been on the forum long enough nor do I possess the knowledge or experience to help figure what happened here - only that I'm really sorry it did. Sounds as though you're pretty much sold on the Lorsban, anyhow. Good news is you can start over and address any issues you had with the original fishery.

You have eliminated a DO crash as the cause, right? I mean, a reptile wouldn't die due to low DO levels, it would swim to the surface and breath? Are you seeing dead frogs, too?

Well, I'm here to help in any manner I can. Have CSBG if you are interested and we have a great source of YP, SMB and WE too. Sure hope we can help you rebuild your fishery.

When did you stock the WE? How big were they and how many morts are you seeing? Could it be only smaller fish are being affected?

Come to think of it TJ. I'm not seeing any dead frogs, but not seeing very many hhmmm, if any at all.But have seen several tadpoles.Yeah, airbreathers....

TJ thanks for your concern and your offers. I have CSBG in my radar as a matter of fact. I will wait probably a month before doing any restocking. I will investigate your YP and WE.

I put 350 WE in last September. In all, I've only seen maybe 6-10 WE morts.

Shawn Banks tells me you guys are buds? Tells me you and Mr. Bluegill get together occasionally. I was going to try to make it down to his place last winter, but time flies.

Hmmm...well, a fish kill is a fish kill, but I'm just trying to drill down to see if you have more than one issue at play here. Obviously if there's more at work here than the pesticide you want to identify it and try to resolve so it won't repeat.

Bring a partner to seine and you can have all the CSBG you can fit in your tanks. Our friend up here, Rob Hofpar at NE lake management has great YP and WE and I will hopefully have a nice load of SMB this late Summer too. Here to help if we can!

Condello and I have been kicking around the idea of visiting Polo MO here in the next few weeks...are you game? Would be great to meet you.