Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Solar electricity; off the grid?

I'm not sure how much input and experience this thread will gather, but it's worth a try. Many of us have found that securing our piece of pond paradise came with minimal electricity options. In my case, the run from the existing power to the pondsite is about 2000 ft. I'll bet there's others with even longer distances to negotiate for juice. We knew this when we purchased the parcel and are painfully aware of the costs to bring in electricity. Such is life, such is paradise.
I have done some due diligence by researching solar electicity and living "off the grid". It was a serious consideration, but I ultimately yielded to accepting the costs to bring in good ol' fashioned 220 from the pole at the county road. Then I got to thinkin' again when Nick sparked (get it?) the idea to start this thread with his Gravel at the dock thread. Within that thread, he briefly describes a photo-voltaic charged bank of batteries he has installed at his lake. This is the kind of stuff that I want to hear about.
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Who else is using this technology? What are the experiences...the pros, the cons?

I think the biggest killer is if you are going to run A/C. In the midwest, it is almost a requirement. It is really difficult (actually not difficult but price prohibitive!) to size a system to handle a/c. I originally installedy my system so I could run a dock de-icer in the winter (I use a compressor type system from "dockbubbler.com" - it uses little juice compared to blade types). I had to size the panels based on the amount of daylight I get in the winter. I actually have 2 more solar panels that I only use in the winter to provide additional juice. I will try to find my folder with all the calcs in the next couple of days and post up the basics.

Nick

PS - is there anyway to run a spell check on these posts?

Things start to get interesting when you get into alternative power sources. I have also been researching solar/hydro power as an option for my next home. Hydro sounds like the best alternative if you have a stream, but solar technology keeps getting better and better. Solar energy is most effective at heating.

If you are trying to go completely off grid you would probably be better suited to use geothermal heating/cooling. These systems use much less electricity than traditional heating and cooling and they are cheaper to install if the geothermal coils are placed in the depths of a pond.

I look forward to an interesting discussion on this. I have been researching solar systems and there is so darn much to learn. From what I have learned so far, which I admit ain't much, is that first you have to determine what your realistic energy usage is. Like Nick said if you are going to run a/c or any other significant power consuming devices you better determine how power you will need. You also have to decide are you going completely off grid or be grid tied. If you are completely off grid you have to decide whether or not to supplement the solar system with some form of backup like for instance a propane generator. And can you supplement the solar with wind generators or like Bender said Hydro.

In building our home my wife and I are seriously considering an off grid solar system backed up via a liquid cooled propane generator. But you can't go into this thinking it will be a cost savings project. The payback period on these systems is long. Up front costs are huge. For us, being tied to the grid is significantly cheaper up front even though I have about 1,000 feet to tie to the grid and would only want to do it using underground wiring (I currently live in a telephone/utility pole jungle and am sick of looking at the unsitely poles and wires) I don't want to clutter up the skyline at my rural property.

From what I've been able to determine so far is that a complete system (solar panels, inverters, switching systems, batteries, and a "California approved" liquid cooled propane generator) that would provide essentially the same power level as being tied to the grid can easily reach $50,000. Of course about $10K of that is the generator. Perhaps it's typical California gouging so I am very interested in hearing what others have to say.

Even with that I'm considering an off grid system. In my area of El Dorado county power outages are not that uncommon. Happens quite a bit in winter/spring with power lines being downed by trees etc and there was about a week long outage during the extreme heat last summer (we had a week of 105 to 110 degree weather). Because of this being off grid has it's appeal to me. DIED if you are reading this how is power in your area of EDC?

we're at the bitter end of a long overhead run that goes underground for the last 400 feet. when we moved here, i was expecting alot of surges and outages, but its actually not bad. only a couple times a year due usually to downed trees.

we are contemplating off-grid power for a barn (not yet built on our other parcel) and for additional water supply (well not drilled yet). i'll report back here when i have some useful info cause i know how much b'ski likes his threads derailed

Brettski,

I have a solar powered tractor shed, so I have a little experience with solar. I have found that solar is very economical and IDEAL for intermittent use. For $600-$700, you can have 2000w of dependable AC current for running tools, lights, small fridge, microwave, TV, etc., but not all at the same time. The complexity and expense comes in when you need electricity 24/7, run big stuff, want all the comforts of home, or make a grid tie. A small scale setup is unbelievably simple, and nearly maintenance free. All you have to do is keep your batteries topped off with water, and occasionally clean the battery posts.

Based on current rates and guesstimates of installation costs from my rural co-op power supplier, it will cost about $8k to bring in power. This would be a buried line (wouldn't have it any other way). I spent some quality time caluculating this stuff 2 years ago when we purchased the parcel, so alot of this is by memory...but...my preliminary studies of solar power, totally off the grid, indicate the basic power source would cost would come in around $15K. This would include PV panels, batteries, inverter, and supply wiring for a medium sized system (4000 watt, IIRC...?). A decent sized (10 - 12Kw) propane generator is another $5k. So, in round figures, call it $20k. Now, consider the periphery stuff. The special refrigerator, special wiring and lighting fixtures if you want to operate at 12v for efficiency. I can't begin to remember the list of unusual changes that would be required...but it was all based on low energy draw. This is why I would really like to hear from somebody that is doing it. Any PB'ers out there that are off the grid?
I agree, the biggie for me was the need for A.C. This would require generator operation. Swamp coolers are definitely OUT.
The last big drawback is the market-ability of a home product that is powered in this manner. Like all investments, you gotta consider the "what if I sell it?" scenario. I gotta believe that the market segment narrows considerably for a solar powered home. I think that is probably the final nail in the coffin.
Now, what about solar as supplementary? This might be an option. There are some government rebate programs for the purchase and installation of this stuff. You guys in CA. have generous incentives. This might be the way to go. Any players in this arena?

This where I am finding where the real cost differences are. If you are planning on running efficiency lights and appliances then the initial system cost is cheaper. But if you are going with standard lighting and appliances and A/C then up goes the initial investment.

Interesting, in California off grid solar or even grid tied solar homes typically sell for more than a standard grid tied home. Fortunately as you mentioned Brettski, California does have some very good tax incentives for alternative energy purchases.

Take a look at homepower.com

Brettski,

At $8,000 to bring in power, I'd think you'd have to be crazy not to. There might be a person out there that would buy a house that's off grid, but 99% of buyers don't want to have to learn how to operate and maintain an off grid system. That is only for those extreme situations where it's just not possible to bring in power, or the price to do so is over $100,000

Every power company prices there install rates differently, but one thing they do is base the price of bringing in that power on the demand sheet that you fill out. The more demand that you will use, the less it will cost to run the lines.

I had to bring mine in 1,800 feet. With my demand requirements, it cost me under $600. I don't know if you can do this or not, but it's worth investigating.

I hang out an other website that's more about tractors and working the land. There is a poster there that is just about the smartest guy I've come across. He put in a solar system to power his home and shop. He's a machinist and needs enough power to run his tools.

It's a very good read and those who join in the discussion really add alot to it. One poster, Patrick, is an expert in this stuff and he really takes the time to explain the how and why to it all. From emergency folding of the panels on a windy day, to ducting the generator to keep the shed cool. It's all there, and it's for real. No theory, he did this and the posts are what it took to make it happen.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/86406-solar-power-shed-project.html

Eddie

Check out Water Furnace . They offer Geothermal HVAC solutions that work anywhere, even in the cold state of Michigan! Check out their savings calculator to get an estimate of your yearly electrical costs using their geothermal pumps.

I ran an estimate for a Chicago home at 1500 sqft and it returned $101 yearly spent on cooling, $745 on heating and $129 on Hot water.

Regardless of whether you decide to go solar, if you are going build a house it is definitely something to look into.

Does anyone know what kind of efficiencies inverters have in the real world? Just curious.

I have 2 inverters in my dock shed and they both are about 90% effiecient. One invetor is 2000 watt modified sine wave and the other is 300 watt true sine wave. The small one is considered "clean power". The best I can figure the efficiencies are about the same on both.

Nick

http://store.solar-electric.com/index.html is a good site for solar products and information on solar energy.

They have a forum at http://www.wind-sun.com/smf/index.php

They had an interesting article on Sunfrost refrigerators vs Energy Star rated new refrigerators. Pretty much their take was it is less expensive to buy a normal refrigerator that is slightly less efficient and upgrade the PV array than it is to get a special solar friendly refrigerator.

Also for anybody who has a well pumping water 24/7 they might want to look into solar power. The wind-sun.com website has several rated between 50-75 gpm.

Eddie, thanks for the tractorbynet link. Wow what a post. I read through all 23 pages. Man there are some really knowledgeable people over there. The guy who is building the solar system is south of Dave and I about 80 miles or so and is also in the foothills of the Sierras. What a system he is building!

Of course now I have tractor envy.

Bender, thanks for those links, I'm building my solar link collection.

Jeff,

There are probably five or six sites on the internet where you can go and get good advice from people who have some experience in what they are talking about. My favorite site is Tractorbynet because it's all about living on the land and everything that's involved with owning a few acres.

This site is highly recomeneded by the members over there, as most of them are on both sites. When somebody has a pond question, it's almost the first reply for them to go to Pondboss and ask the experts. It's how I found this site, and how allot of others got here.

The same is true for forestry/logging, welding, RVing and antique tractors. There only seems to be one site that is any good for each of those topics, and they are recomended over and over again.

Rob is one of those posters over at Tractorbynet who is a few steps above genius. He isn't the only one over there either!!, but his thread on solar energy and being off grid is about as informative as anything I've ever come across.

Eddie