Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Crappie

I had the pond electrofished today. BG and GSD numbers were good, various sizes and weights. LMB numbers are low, but fish are very healthy. Now my problem is my BCP. There are lots of them. Mainly in the 6-9 inch range, and none above it. Why aren't there any bigger BCP? I don't want them, but are they that stunted? Are the large LMB and catfish eating them? And what is the best way to get rid of them? The state biologists said I should add 10LMB per acre. I have 800 HSB in there now between 10-16inches. What do you guys think I should do? I'm going to add 300LMB, what else is needed?

The size of the crappie could be stunting, but it could also be that there is not enough forage for them to get big even if their population is not "over" populated.

More predator fish will keep their numbers down to a degree. I would think the HSB could do a good job of it, but then again, they may be inhabiting a different niche than where the crappie are hanging out.

Slow down and don't add anything until we go through this situation.

What exactly did you see and the state biologist say ?

What do you want the place to be ?

I saw no mention of BG , RES , GSF etc nor GShiners , TShad. Are you set to grow BG in the small pond ? GShad can be a real problem in limiting (taking up and suppressing) fish reproduction and carrying capacity. Crappie can also do this and stunt as well. Crappie generally have a population cycle that makes them hard to manage in a pond. You have more room but the habitat is monolithic from the pic. but fertile. Just because all the crappie are X inches does not mean they are stunted. That could be the stage they have reached in the population cycle. You have a lot going on in the pond and it would help to write all you see/know down so others can look and advise. You have options but stocking more fish without knowing the status could be a waste of $ . Did you tell the state guy all you know/have seen including about the BG project? Is he doing a report ? Try doing a timeline of pond events like original pond status ,then fish added , average harvest ( type ,size and #) and general pond info like size , depth , fertility etc. Do you intend to feed?

The BG pop was very good. I saw as many BG as I did GSF, and the BG were a good variety of sizes. I didn't see many GShad that were too big for forage. Most were about 4 inches. There are no Gshiners in there. I'm not sure about TShad, I'm pretty sure, based on the mouths that they are GShad only. The only recomendations that the state biologist had was to add ten LMB per acre. I want to have big LMB and HSB if they will live that well here. I don't care about BG. I didn't spend a lot of time talking with the biologist, he was only here about 20 minutes and didn't measure or weigh any fish. I'm less than pleased by this. I've been talking with SE Pond Mgt and next time I'm going to get them to do it. I originally planned the BG project when I thought that I had very few BG and would need to supplement the LMB. It's a plan that I will discuss more when I have SE Pond over to look at it. I spoke with their biologist, Dr. Slipke today. I explained the pond in detail and what I saw today. He had already suspected, based on our prior phone conversations, that the pond was understocked with LMB. I asked him if he thought it would work to go with 300 12-14inch LMB, and have him electrofish it next spring. He thought that would be a good plan.

If Jeff has the info and said it was a good plan then you should be good to go. But remember he has not seen the pond and you have. The State biologists I know are good they are just over worked , short on time and under paid. Some states don't offer that service at all to private pond owners or only in very limited circumstances.

One point to note on adding LMB. It is much easier to add them than to take them out. Also they get bigger faster if they have less competition. I always go slow on adding LMB as long as the ones there are successful with recruitment. They have an uncanny ability to fill the available niche to overflowing. I like to keep in mind the longer term impact of what I do and often short term wishes are at odds with them. For example if one wants to catch LMB now/soon he could add a bunch of LMB and short term that would work but it would probably result long term in to many LMB and they would be small not large. Its all about balance over time. A pond your size is like a giant cruse ship not a ski boat it does not react quickly. If you try to make it react quick it can be very hard to keep from swamping and hard to turn around. You are thinking about adding 8lbs +- of LMB per acre. They will each eat 10 lbs of forage per fish per year over and above what is being eaten now. Next spring each pair will produce an extra 15000 +- LMB yoy over and above what your existing LMB produce. Geometrically after that and you can see longer term where this leads. That is an extra 2,250,000 LMB yoy next spring. With 1% survival that means 22,500 extra breeding LMB the year after.

One question - did you just add those HSB ( has their effect on the system been factored into the current sample results) ? Good luck and keep us advised on how things go.

I in no way meant to insult any state biologists. These guys were only in the water for about 15 minutes, and didn't measure or weight the first fish. 200 HSB were added last year and 600 more this spring. They've just started to consume 3" and larger fish. Based on some of your advice and other posts ewest, I'm going to have Jeff come out and electrofish it this week. It's the best way I can think of to get a good plan in place. I'll let you know what he finds and recommends. Thanks for your help.

Be sure to tell Jeff hello and that you are an active Pond Bosser. Tell him thanks for giving Dave Willis the SMB info. Be sure to tell him exactly what you want. He is a very good biologist and a good listener and can give you a good plan. Ask questions and watch and ask what he is seeing to draw the conclusions. Be sure to tell him what was stocked and when.

I did not think you were insulting them . I knew what you were going to say because I have been around them for years. What you described is not
unusual.

Let us know how things go. Take some pics and post them. We can go over the plan as it unfolds.

For a novice or uninformed pond owner, the state boys could be worlds of help and knowledge. However, in the case of most pond bossers on here, I think we desire more input. I do wish I had enough time to take some photos, maybe with Jeff I'll be able to.

I caught 15 crappie this afternoon, they averaged 7.5" in length.

Jeff from SE Pond came out today. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary except some 35lb GC. They said they were the biggest GC they had ever handled. Jeff recommended 300-500 adult LMB. He thought that there was amazing forage in the pond with the GSD. He felt like the bass could grow a couple of pounds a year. He did say the stunted BCP would make good forage as well.

If it was my lake , and it is not, I would go ahead with the BG/forage pond you thought about and also add the adult LMB. Depending on the size you find I would stay on the low end by weight. Try for 300 lbs of 10-12in LMB appx 1lb each. It is not easy to find those adult fish from a known source. It is necessary that you know about the source . There are folks out there selling 4-5 yr old 12in LMB that are stunted. You don't want those in your lake.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Do you think that a LMB in the 8"-10" would survive well, and be less likely to have been stunted?

I think the source of the fish is a key . Know their age - ask and check on the seller's reputation.

How big are your biggest predators and what type? That will determine survivability of smaller LMB stockers. If you have good #s of 20+ in. LMB they can eat 8-10 in LMB. I would suggest pre-release habituation of the LMB you are going to add if they are subject to predation.

Pre-release habituation

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There are very few bass in the pond. The largest predators are blue cats in the 15-20lb range. To my surprise Jeff said that the pond could support up to 800lb of fish per acre. I called numerous places this morning looking for adult Florida LMB with no luck.

I would not run a pond/lake in these parts at 800 lbs per acre especially a shallow one with out aeration. To much chance of a DO crash with the resulting fish kill. That is 30,000+- lbs of fish in yours. Half that amount is plenty.

I would suggest that you look on the forum about whether you want pure Flas or not. Some for cross breeding would be good but for catchability you should check on F-1s and some northern LMB to go with some Flas. The further north the less well Flas perform wrt reaching their genetic potential. To far north and they die during winter. F-1 adults should be easier to find.

I anticipated you would run into this problem. That is why I suggested going ahead with the small BG growout pond. In the event you can't find enough adult LMB (assume you only find 100) then stock BG/RES mix (2in) into the BG pond along with a few hundred adult CNBG and some FH , ASAP. Feed them and in the early fall add 800 4-6in feed trained LMB into the BG growout pond keep them there on feed until March and then move them and the BG into the big lake. That should do the trick. Keep a few hundred BG/RES in the growout pond to replenish it.

I would never want anywhere near 800lb per acre. I've found a place that has 3/4lb Northern LMB. I've already thought that I might have to grow out LMB in the BG pond. I think I'm going to stock the majority with northern and then try to grow out some F1's or Fla. Both biologists said that recruitment would be very low due to the shallow water, wind activity, and soil we have. So other than the F1 or Fla getting big on their own, would there be any advantage to getting them?