Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations The Mecca of Pond stuff

First of all, this is my first topic and some stuff may be redundant... This websight is great, I have been "lurking" the pages and still didn't find answers for my questions (doesn't mean there not here). I am in North East Texas outside of Sulphur Springs, two years ago I had a draw damned off and low and behold it's finally got good water in it.. It will be around three acres when full. I remember looking at this websight and had timber put in different parts of the pond, some tires, barrells, three twenty foot pits dug in different depths within the pond, pvc condos, etc.. Six weeks ago I had a fish company come to the pond and deliver three hundred 6-8" CC, 200 4-6" inch north strain LMB, 300 large CBG, 200 large REB, and forty pounds of fatheads.. We want a wide assortment for all the family, but my fav is bass... The pool is at fifty percent maybe sixty full with the rest being slow fill covering alot of land but only will reach another five fet or so in depth.. It will be twenty five foot deep at it's deepest point.
I have two feeders covering different areas with only fatheads feeding that I have seen. Now, all that said to give you an idea of my situation..

1. Should I see spawns this year from the brim? and if so at what time of year?

2. Should I see fathead spawns already (because I haven't)

3. Any one in this area selling Talapia or have used them other than in algae problematic pools (I have no algae probs yet). Do they winter kill this far south? Are they worth the get just for more forage fish or would more brim be there answer..

4. Is five hundred (300 CNBG, 200 REB, 40 lbs of fatheads) enough for a three acre pool, I purposly bought them older and mature expecting spawns this year while predation should be lower with the smaller fish..

5. Why am I not seeing brim and catfish feeding at the feeders? I understand the bass sometimes do not feed on food when there is enough fatheads, etc.

OK, I am done for now and yes I plan on getting the magazine thank you so much in advance for helping out..
Be Blessed,
Damon Wilks

Welcome to PB Damon! You got it right PB is the mecca of pond stuff. Hold on and an answer will come before ya know it!

I will provide a little advice on a couple of your questions. I don't like tackleing multiple questions because it ends up taking lots of my time due to complex answers to what seems are simple questions.
Firstly, for benefit of all readers - I will assume that REB means redear sunfish (RES).
My advice is not rosey but hopefully it will help you understand what is happening in your new pond.
1. It's too late now, but according to the Pond Boss philosophy, your stocking plan is somewhat biased. Two reasons, 1. you have added all the species at once. Typically the predators are added later after minnows and forage fish have spawned AT LEAST one time. This produces lots and lots and lots of small forage fish for fast growth of predators when they are stocked later. Small fish fry can also enhance growth of panfish. Medium and large panfish will feed on fish smaller than 1".

2. You have added a full complement of fish (all species) before the pond is completely full. Basic rule - A full pond overall, produces the most and best food item diversity for a "FULL" commmunity or combination of fishes. When the pond is not completely full, stocking of just forage fish (primarily minnows sometimes panfish) is the best plan for the first or initial stocking. If one is truly interested in good growth of their fish, stocking should be done in 2 or 3 phases over a period of 1-2 yrs. Phase 1: minnows and maybe panfish, Phase 2: predators, and maybe extra or new panfish, Phase 3: some supplimental stocking to correct or adjust densities to improve the fishery balance.

3. Lets look briefly at your stocking work so far. Reminder - you have or will have 3 acres of water. You stocked 40 lbs of minnows(FH) and 200 LMB 4"-6". Bass this size no longer eat zooplankton. Your unfilled pond does not have a full complement of invertebrates compared to full pool - so invertebrates are less than adequate for the bass AND have to be shared with the CC, CBG, and RES. Minnows of 40 lb X 16 oz = 640 oz of FH. 640/200LMB = 3.2 oz per bass - not much food that will not last very long. Now bass are on a low food diet. I like to see at least one pound of existing forage fish for each 4"-10" bass (or predator).

4. In a filling pond, it can be hard for some fish to produce adequate spawns due to fluxuating or rising water levels. Filling ponds are frequently muddy or silty-turbid which can stress egg development and hatching success. Rising water levels can also affect proper nest construction or desire to nest by males of the sunfish fish family. This is another reason to wait to stock the sport fishes until the pond is at full pool.
Panfish should be spawning in TX by now, but since your pond is not at full pool your spawns maybe delayed for several or a combination of reasons.

5. If your water is cloudy-muddy you may not see the minnow fry. This assumes you still have minnows and each bass has not eaten its 3.2 oz share of FH. Realize some bass may have eaten more than their 3.2 oz portion by now. I estimate that a 6" bass will eat 3.2oz of minnows within 2 wks. EXPERIMENTING POND MEISERS MAY WANT TO ACTUALLY TEST THIS. IT WOULD BE AN EXCELLENT LITTLE 1/2 TO ONE PAGE ARTICLE FOR PB Mag!! Put a 5"-6" LMB in a aquarium with 3.2 oz of fatheads; measure how long the minnows last.

6. Tilapia will almost always winterfill due to low temperatures in your area. Tilapia can grow larger than bgill and in my opinion they are as good as or better eating than bgill. Meat has a texture and flavor similar to crappie and a better texture than CC.

7. ""Is five hundred (300 CNBG, 200 REB, 40 lbs of fatheads) enough for a three acre pool""? Larger sized CNBG and RES are acceptable but not best. FH stocked numbers are okay with out bass present; with 4"-6" bass and your pond conditions FH should have been at 200 lbs(100-300) in my opinion. It would have been much easier and MUCH more successful to have stocked your 200 LMB this fall. Ten pounds of FH minnows stocked in spring without bass would have easily produced 100-200 lbs of minnows by fall.

8. I am on a roll, I might as well finish your questions.
""Why am I not seeing brim and catfish feeding at the feeders?"
It all depends.
If your new pond has water clarity issues with newly stocked fish don't expect immediate responses at fish feeders. Firstly fish have to find the feeders. Often fish have to be CONDITIONED to eat artificial food. Secondly, sometimes even hatchery pellet trained fish will go off feed or will refuse to eat pellets when placed in a NEW environment. Thirdly, your feeding schedule may be different than what they were used to. AND your fish may not have been raised on pellets. Fourthly, it is very possible they do not know what fish food is yet or they have not located the feeder/s. Fiftly your pellets can be a different brand, flavor or protein content than what they are used to - some fish are picky just like people. Numerous reasons are possible, obviously it is some reason or combination of reasons. BE assured numerous people have this same problem of new fish not eating the pelleted offerigs. Very frequently, it is not just a matter of tossing out fish food and the fish go wild for it.

I would like to thank Wild Bill for 1) sucking it up and delivering somewhat unpleasant news, 2) doing so in an extremely thorough manner that let me learn a few things, and 3) answering before me instead of after me, thereby probably saving me from looking foolish in this one particular instance.

Maverick, can you get you hands and wallet on a bunch more fatheads? That might help keep those LMB occupied until the bream can get a forage base going.

As Bill said, CC and BG do not always start feeding right away. My CC ate the first time I fed, but my BG took 2 1/2 years to learn. Other PMs have had the exact opposite experience. Keep testing the waters, so to speak, wrt feeding. When either species starts taking pellets, it should help relieve the developing food supply in your pond. When the BG start feeding, it should help with their spawning and hence the LMB forage issue.

WOW, I just got through pouring battery acid into the pool and boring the damn out draining the pool.. Problem solved huh?
Thanks I kinda feared some of what you said already, but wasn't privey to much info before deciding the stocking rates and such.. Just went by the rates given by different fisheries per acre and such. It is wild how different the scales are form "expert" to expert some saying 10 lb of fatheads per acre, some as low as 5 lbs per acre. And the brim you see some saying stock 1000 per acre and some 100 per acre that is a big difference..

Well, the question is what to do then, instead of all that is wrong, how can I right it? And more forage is possible financialy, is that the best fix..

Don't get me wrong I appreciate your reponse but would like to hear about a solution whatever it may be..

OK . The key is establishing a breeding population of BG that the LMB can't eat for at least 1 year. Those breeding BG (or combo of forage like FH , tilapia , GShiners etc) must be able to produce enough offspring to feed the predators and replace themselves. I would suggest that you find a source for 4-6in (or bigger) CNBG (Coppernose Bluegill or BG or RES or a combo of them)and put them in ASAP so they can spawn this summer. Try for 800 of them. Also in that mix could be some adult tilapia to stem the tide. My guess is it will be hard to find them. With all the new water/full ponds in TX I understand that there is a shortage of fish in some areas. I know hatcheries in Ala. that are taking fish to TX and can sell all they have. That plus more FH should help. Not cheap though.

This assumes the LMB are not feed trained. If the LMB will eat pellets you can reduce the # and urgency.

I'm not much on filling in behind Bill, Theo and Ewest but do have some thoughts. Where are you feeding? It could be that you are feeding where you want the fish to be and not where they are. Walk around and experiment. These guys are in a new environment and have dispersed over a wide area larger than a football field.

What are you feeding? Sometimes the stuff from a certain mill just may not be to their liking. Contact the hatchery and find out what their past consumption habits have been.

BTW, you haven't said anything about water quality. Did you test it? Is it fertile? Is it turbid, clear, muddy, etc.? Did you go from whopper rain to immediate stocking? To me, the requested solution may be dependent on the environment.

Wow... word of advice listen to these guys. Dont be a newbie who has to fix mistakes for not listening... heheh

Mav,
Variation of FH stocking rates is due to the size of bass stocked and personal opinion of fish sellers - some are just BETTER than others. Lower rates are typicaly for no initial bass stocking or bass 2"-3" long. Typically bass do not eat 1.5"-2.5" FH minnows and this gives the adults some time (be it short) to spawn successfully before the adults are consumed. If one is stocking bass capable of eating the size of stocked fatheads obviously one needs more minnows.

Stocking more fatheads will help keep your larger sized bass in good condition until something can spawn and provide naturally produced food for the bass.

When you said "300 large CBG, 200 large REB" I assumed you ment breeder sized fish - 5"-7" long. As I mentioned earlier these fish may have a difficult time spawning on muddy soft bottoms in fluxuating water levels.

As Dave mentions water conditions are relative to your situation. If your water is murky from runoff or eroded bank sediment or a bloom it will allow the minnows to survive longer since the bass will have a slightly harder time finding the minnows. Note - A bloom will help fuel the food chain and small new fish production, however muddy water hinders food chain development.

If you stock tilapia they would spawn regardles of the water level since they do not build nests for spawning.

Sorry it took so long... I was busy this weekend, thanks for the replies..

Dave,
I did the ol' throwing feed trick for a couple for weeks and the feeder locations are where the fish were the most active in feeding.. They fed real well to the feeders this weekend also.. So I think I was panicking too early as far as the feeding.
The water is muddy but clears when in a bucket, water test was sent off this past weekend. And there has been a couple of days without rain and I am seeing ther pond clear well in the banks and shallows. The area is sandy soil with good red clay 2 feet deep in the sahllows all red caly in the deepest part. I have good grass growth all the way into the pool except one area.

Bill,
I spent alot of time at the pool this weekend and saw minnow spawn so that is one question answered.. I could see some CNBG, RES in the shallows on beds also. The pool is about two years old and I stocked shiners in there off and on by the pound since it's inital good rain.. When I take a net and scoop the ground there are thousands of little bugs, snails, leaches, and all kinds of prehistoric looking critters... There are also a ton of tadpoles, at one dip I caught what I was sure was a small green sunfish or hybrid that I DID NOT put in there.. This weekend I saw catfish, bass, and brim this weekdend all with growth just in six weeks.. I feel alot better about it seeing the spawning and such.. I am up for whatever as far a corrective stocking measures.. Would I do better to get as much CNBG as I can at spawning age again, or even more that are smaller for less money? Do I still need more fatheads? I really love to catch bass but my kids, mom, grandmother, wife, etc could catch a minnow and be happy so the CNBG idea suits me great they can have a great day with them..

Thanks in advance,
Damon