Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? My worst ever pond disaster is knocking at my door

I posted some photos of this nightmare. The very old pond we pumped out to find 3-4 feet of muck/sludge. Where the guy got stuck and we had to pull him out with a rope.

Here is the history. Customer wanted pond drained, lmb taken out as they were eating baby ducks. Have no idea what I am looking at here, as depths were disguised by crust over 40-50 years of muck and sludge from both residential runoff and an unusually large flock of semi domestic mallards. When I see what I do, I tell them they should drain it, dry it out and remove three to four feet of bottom sludge. Nope, that would cost too much, just fill it back up. Big mistake.

I try to plant water lilies, ducks eat them all within a day. Try hyacinth, eat them up in two days. Water goes bad, I mean really bad, massive algae bloom, then blue/green poison. Duck die off, they won't even enter the water. I start planting marginals, anything to try and take some of the nutrients down. Sludge eating bacteria for entire summer, bag after bag. Water finally clears, add some aeration to help, family of 5 otters visit and eat every fish I planted. Can't tough them unless they are there for a week or longer. Someone trapped them before, released them upstream. I said this disaster is both pointless and a major dead end. They said we can handle it. Good, see you later.

Now it is even worse. They asked another company to come in, and suffered major sticker shock with the bid. I have a bad feeling this is a no win I'd rather not get involved job. I can sit there and say I told you so, should have removed that muck when pond was empty. But at the same time they are asking me to comeback and really need help. I must admit, this is a tough spot. I don't expect miracles, but is there something I could try or do better without draining pond and physically removing that 5 decades of nutrients?

Sometimes all you can do is offer your best advice and if it isn't wanted, you just have to walk away.

PF, may I refer you to a fine post made by your alter ego recently for Blaine?

Words of wisdom Pondfrog! Sounds like Rex has been there and I know I have!

On another note I'm surprised with the Oberstate California there isn't some major hazardous waste God awful cost for moving that muck and some EPA study that has to be done.

PF sounds like this pond has gotten some bad Karma. Like you said drain and dredge, or get someone with a suction dredge, I don't know which would be cheaper.
How big is this pond?

Classic case of client's expectations gone wild and I think you just provided your own solution.

The folks here that only know PF from his posts don't know that PF is a "give you the shirt of his back" type of guy - I can personally attest to this.

I see you getting taken advantage of here PF, I know that's not an answer to your question but as a friend I'm just giving you a "heads up."

Good advice from everyone so far, PF. My only other thought is that if you plan to take this job, charge a massive premium on it. When I consult with a potential new client who makes it very clear he/she is going to be a major pain and a problem to control, I will often multiply my fees by a factor of 4 just to try to dissuade them from hiring me. If they're serious, they'll pay, and if they surprise me and decide to pay, it's going to be an amount that makes it worth my while to manage their behavior and attitude. But I think you are spot on with your assessment of thinking it may be best to simply walk away.

Todd, a friends father is one of those people. He alwasy seems to have to pay 3x or 4x the price of other people to get things done, but I know why. It seems that you aren't the only business to take that route.

PF, I realize that you want to do the best you can for the customer, but don't let it impact the rest of your customers, both present and future. Some goals are not realistic for the effort that is expected.

I did get my good natured help everyone out side taken advantage here in some aspects. I can live with that. I just am troubled by lack of success. The pond itself is about a little over 1 acre surface, different contours on the bottoms, as far as slopes, zero forage cover. I am to call the regional manager this AM on my early morning contact drill. I must admit, it is a internal conflict. Torn between blowing them off or my chronic desire to help people out.

The way I see it, the symptoms are what is ruining the pond. But the foundation or base problems are numerous, and ongoing. The main problems that have contributed to the miserable state the pond is in, residential runoff all flows into it. The who has the greenest lawn syndrome. And massive overfeeding by well intentioned old folks of waterfowl. I don't think you could have set a worse case scenario. Plus the long term ramifications is brutal. That bad stuff just acculmulates annually. Multiply that times 50. It has poor water movement, and this time of year entrance only.

I could install a nutrient eating bog at the entrance. But the ducks are part of the problem also as every old person just wants to be kind and feed them. They walkaway from cracked corn. And multiply and bring more in. They invade the swimming pool and have very large clutches, 8-12. Those babies do not leave either.

Then there is the long term accumulation issue. That is the requires attention now part. I just need to fix the current situation and make the water pretty. Not my normal modus operandi, but that is the bottom line. This pond just can't be what they want and a duck pond also. Not long term. I don't know the exact symptoms as of yet, but I can only imagine. I have seen it go green slick to toxic.

I am going to look over the other companies bid and gameplan. I know they have a multi fauceted plan of attack. And to be honest, I doubt that will work short term, and know it won't long term. My wife says don't get involved it's bad karma and stresses me out in a stress free career. Hey, at least I am humble enough to know when a pond situation can't be beat and kicks my ass.

PF, I can't offer any advice on your specific situation, as I don't have anywhere near your level of knowledge, but as a small business owner, I can definitely attest to the fact that there are some jobs you are better off without. My resolution for this year: Learn when to say "No thank you". I know it's tough, you try to be all things to all people. It just doesn't always work that way. My mantra? Be polite, be honest, be firm.

Well said Rainman,

I too, really like to help people out when I can. Most of the time at my own expense financially and mentally as far as stress is concerned, but sometimes it is just not worth it.

I very recently submitted a management plan and itemized list of expenses to a potential client who seemed really nice at first but with each interaction became more and more rude and demanding.

After I submitted my proposal, I didn't hear back from him. He got a free management plan, but I suspect he wasn't expecting the fish to be as expensive as they are in california right now. He probably just wanted to cut out the middleman. I never followed up to see if there was anything I could do so that I could stay on the project.

I honestly just didn't want to work with the guy anymore. It wasn't worth it to me at that point. It felt good to just walk away, but initially it was very hard to do because walking away from a problem or challenge is not something I had ever done before.

Look for fish prices to keep climbing as CA F and G drive almost every supplier locally out of business, and ban imports. No I'm not kidding.

Back to the disaster. Had a heart to heart with the regional manager today, but no commit until I look over pond Monday. I never bid site unseen. Well the worm sure turned. I had a gameplan with the local site caretaker, who reported to the on site manager. Most of my plans were at least settling the water quality issues down. My turtle island was a huge success, and my marginals also helped. So this guy who told me to get lost he could handle it was actually taking credit for my successes, and blaming me for his numerous failures. I kind of felt this was happening, but being exmilitary, I don't jump the chain of command. I think he was embezzling funds for pond supplies and doing nothing, so the pond slid backwards badly.

Then he starts ripping off residents, gets in many altercations, fired and refuses to leave his home, and is being evicted. Oops. So they call some random company. And this should be in the starting a pond consultation business thread, what not to do. They bid, are supposed to come out and evaluate. They blow off the regional manager not once but twice, failing to show. Then they give another cost estimate, twice as much. The regional manager says where is that Frog guy, we need him back, if he will comeback, then everything was clear to her. She wishes I had informed her about the bad employee, but that is a trick bag I don't get into. Businesses should solve thier own in house problems.

She said when you were here things were moving along on schedule, and the residents noticed how everything turned for the worst immediately after I left. Plus this new company has strung her along for close to a month without doing anything. She said you show up, you let us know what you are doing and stick with it. Please give us one more chance. She personally asked for me to return. Sometimes things work out in the long term, or the worm turns.

Now I could be back to almost square one. But I said I can't commit without seeing the pond. It gave me an out. I think I have to address the water quality issues first. And I ask my favorite questions, what do you want, and what do you expect? It is up to me to provide solutions, and results. I think a frontage bog before the pond in the shallows and back to aeration and sludge eating bacteria. Maybe some tint for the short term. At least it all came clear what happened. Sometimes it takes a customer time to realize what you actually did before they can appreciate your efforts, and with a bad employee in the middle it just made things impossible. Let me revisit this career blemish as I may have a chance at redemption.

Interesting discussions and advice. I'm wondering if now that they have realized there is no quick fix, that you might again suggest that digging out all the much would also be a good thing to do. With all those nutrients sitting down there, I can't imagine that pond will every be anything but an algae pond. Your upstream bog would help to slow the flow of nutrients into the system, but you also need to make it clear to the management that the lawn runoff, duck feeding, etc is an on-going problem, and unless they resolve those issues, the pond will always have water quality issues.

Bill

Part of the discussion was, I wish we would have taken out the muck like you said. I agree with your assessment. The ducks are an ongoing issue, I had told them that before. The residents like them too much, which is why I had to drain the pond and completely remove everything and start over, zero lmb.

I can only do a few things, try to deplete decades of nutrients, and slowdown the introduction of same. The deck is stacked against me. And I will say the same thing, this is going to be a long process. If I can just clear up the water somehow, that will satisfy them for the quick fix end of it. Not even a band aid though. Goign to take a lot of work to undo so much years of accumulation. Worst I have ever seen by far. I'm still undecided, but I have to at least look it over. Budget is not bad. Just have to work two seperate solutions, short and long term. I know, it is bleak.

I think I found an out for this. I can consult only and let the incoming managers handle it. Very good points were I must take care of my current customers and as was mentioned here, just all around bad karma. When I told my wife I was passing on it she was happy and said, "good". This is a major time sponge and to be honest a major can of worms with the ducks and otters. Probably a no win situation. Foolish pride is a deadly sin. If I had a tail still I would tuck in and run anyway. I have plenty of work without this nightmare.

Limit the duck numbers by trapping and moving.

Track hoe some of the muck out to create a sink in the pond.

Do the upstream bog.

Plant some plants and cage them with chicken wire.

How is water chemistry?

Aeration.

Can you use tilapia ?

Limit yard fertilizer if possible.

Try to get a massive FA bloom and remove it to reduce/use up nutrients.

(Don't have to try, that is constant in the Summer. Just did a gallon of Aquashade just to turn the algae pea soup pond blue.) Band Aid on an amputation.

Current consultation, inlet bog, walled off, at least 12" deep, recirc from outlet deep end to distribution plenum drilled out 1/4 inch holes 45 degrees facing downward, over commercial landscape fabric, under 3/8 pea gravel. Try toughest filtering plants I know in there, cattails and bulrushes. I consulted my duck expert forum member Duckdude. Expert biologist, he said, converted mallards are flying swine, will eat everything. Can't cover an area that large. If they eat those I will still have gravel for bacteria.

Introduce many month treatment of beneficial bacteria, multi strain sludge buster, especially in the inlet gravel bog. Should work in three to four ways. Eat up nutrients rising from muck on deep end recircing. Pull in nutrients coming from fertilizer street runoff, and now I think I have a sewer pipe coming in on inlet as well. Pull nutrients from all three sources and give bacteria a place to multiply and flow back into main pond from or through permeable wall.

Aerate, and recirc. Bacteria just going to settle into much and die a rapid death without oxygen and water movement, to assist with gravel medium. There are currently zero gravel beds, and zero aeration. Going double or triple diffuser station, plus fancy shmancy seperate fountain. Aeration will be as widespread as possible.

That will be the preWinter treatment and plan. Might try to establish cold temp bacteria in Winter, then preSpring dye and more bacteria. I estimate, no, I know for a fact a good 36-48 inches of muck from one end of pond to other, with photos supporting that fact.

I need to reduce constant incoming nutrients from adding to disaster. Ducks, sewer and runoff. Plus, decades of accumulation have to slowly be removed. Worst pond I have ever seen or consulted. It's had algaecide or been coppered multiple times, even though I said that was a waste of time. It was. Pretty much uphill battle from start, but I have the time and resources, so wish me luck. I can probably do more for less than half my competitors bid.