Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Is this a GSF, and should I be committed?

I am digging a 10 acre pond at work and all day today I was digging up sunfish with the excavator bucket and tossing them on shore. This is the biggest one I could get my hands on, I think its a GSF due to its big mouth. This 3.5" fish had a 2" BG tail hanging out of its mouth.



My pond is a 1/2 acre pond with BG, YP, LMB, 1 pike, 1 sheephead, and 1 catfish. My pond is three years old and right now my stocker BG are 9 inches and there is more YOY BG of all sizes than my predators can eat. I figure a few GSF wont screw up the balance of my pond, might eat a few of the billions of baby BG I have swimming around, and if they do spawn they will be controlled by predators or make hybrid BG.

I can take my minnow trap to work tomorrow and catch as many as I want, should I add them and if so how many?

Seven of the wisest words I have ever heard,

"If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Personally I wouldn't for a lot of reasons unless your goal is to add another predator to compete with your bass, and hybridize with your bluegills producing smaller inferior offspring.

Don't get me wrong green sunfish are cool fish and can get to a fair size if properly managed -- if they are your primary goal. However with the mix you have now I believe you are asking for nothing but trouble by adding them. Most of the pond owners I know that have green sunfish in them consider them a nuisance.

I agree with Cecil. Plus at 3 years old the pond is likely near carrying capacity. So you will need to take out an equal amount of fish to avoid problems.

Maybe I will skip them then but why would hyrbids be "smaller and inferior offspring"? I thought GSFxBG hybrids would be bigger than regular BG?

The second and later generations are subject to outbreeding depression which is the down side to hybrid vigor in the first generation cross. The other problem is the first generation of HBG = GS X BG is 90 % +- male so their ability to sustain a viable forage base is very limited and their fecundity (reproductive potential is small ( a few thousand vs 50,000 for BG).

Eric,

Are the commercial GSF X BG hybrid crosses sex dependent as in which species is the male and female? I say this because it's important in some other commercial hybrid crosses. If so there would not be any control in a natural population.

Also, remember with hybrids they are limited to the size of their parental species. Generally the hybrid is going to be somewhere in the middle of the two parental species. A BG reaches a maximum size of around 4 pounds and a GSF about 1.5 pounds. So, you can expect the largest of HBG to reach maybe a hair over 2 pounds. So, if you can grow BG to 4 pounds, why would you want an HBG that can only reach 2 pounds? There are reasons to stock HBG, but under most circumstances, pure BG of either the northern of copper nose variety are better.

If you are interested in reading about well documented HBG(actually GG) you can check this link out. Kind of interesting in that his Fx offspring actually grew quite well. http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/TGG.htm

I always thought HBG were more aggressive and had potential for faster and larger total growth than regular BG

More aggressive, yes. Faster growth, well, sorta. They will outpace regular BG for the first 2 years or so, then the regular BG will pass them and keep growning (providing both fish are grown in the same conditions). Larger total growth? No.

Cecil while many of the lepomis crosses are sex dependant BG X GSF not so much so. mBG X fGSF have been shown to be 90% +- males while the reciprocal cross fBG X mGSF is around 70% +- male. Some studies and Fisheries scientist think it closer than that due to other research and the difficulty of finding and proving that pure strains of fish were used in the older studies. In truth the studies show a range of maleness from 66% in one study to 99% in another with most being in the high 90s.

CJ there is good info on standard HBG draw infrences from but not on GG as there is no third party info. With HBG you know what you are dealing with but with GG you have no idea what you have. I would not try to compare them and draw any anology.

can you get the GG to stock in your own pond?

Search for them on here and read.

I was just curious as I have caught some fish that look very similar to them out of a few different ponds so just asking.

I know they are supposed to be some sort of secret super breed, but just wondering how many have escaped, like the GSF.

Thanks

Here is the secret Mr H figure it out
http://www.biotechinstitute.org/resources/presentations/pastacritters.ppt

Paul, that is a neat article.

When you say sheepshead is that the same as Fresh Water Drum?

If so what made you put it in there?

It was a joke from a buddy, we hate sheephead because we catch them all the time walleye fishing and they are very annoying

I love sheephead.
Link for you catmando
http://www.matoppskrift.no/sider/recipe_3175.asp

Have you noticed any issues with the fish, I guess since there is only one may note see anything.

Just wondering as I have posted here for some info on stocking them in a pond for a bonus fish to catch and possible forage base.

Anyway sounds like fun.

Thanks

I have a pond that had a bad die off of lmb because of a 80%+ coontail infestation. It's original planting was lmb, res and bg. Now you catch bg, more bg and even more bg. I'd say they are 95% of the carrying capacity, or current population. DIED was kind enough to let me take a couple hundred dink GSF from his pond. Some up to 6", many between 1-2". I am relocating them to that pond, and removing the same amount or more of bg. My reason for this is GSF are notorious competitors of bg. You will not find an abundance of small bg in a GSF pond. But at the same time, I am replacing the die off LMB. Mostly 5-7" with one new pond trophy 5 lb+. This should keep the newly added GSF in check as well. My long term attempt is to try to get a balanced ratio of bg/GSF and RES. Also try to boost the average size. But the ultimate goal is to reestablish a dominant single predator species pond, for the LMB. Four dozen crawdads and about 1,500 bullfrog polliwogs. Also 200 5-8" hybrid carp. This is for biological vegetation control.

My rule of thumb on introducing a new species is a long hard look where they fit, and what will be thier impact both short and long term. Hybrids in nature are not even an aftethought to me. So that is no factor. Also I try to do a pro and con, or do the benefits outweigh the potential detriments?. You have to take a long thought about this, as if you do indeed introduce GSF, there is no turning back. I tend to use GSF as a third spoke in the sunfish and bg population wheel. And only if there will be a dominant predator species, so they are forage when they are small. Exercise caution.

Slightly different sheepshead! Interesting spice ingredient list......

I would have to disagree that hybrids are limited to the size of their parental species as far as being an intermediate of the parents (size being used arbitrarily.. Could be any trait of interest one is selecting for).

With hybrid vigor you basically experience a "greater" than the average (what you would expect) in gains for the attribute of interest. Not all crosses are good crosses tho.

The problem with hybrids is just that... Well, they are hybrids.

In order to retain 100% of the benefits of hybrid vigor (heterosis), you would have to be 100% sure that the pure strain of species A mates with the pure strain of species B every single time.

This basically means that you would have to maintain two populations of purebred species just so that you can get a consistent hybrid offspring every time. Otherwise you actually would over subsequent generations run into out-breeding depression, which could ultimately lead to the animals being the "average" of the parentals, which wouldn't be useful at all.

So it isn't the hybrid that will be the average of the two species / populations bred. It will be the "mutts" that result from the progeny of those hybrids which will average things out.

Hybrid = crossing two pure breeds

Hybrid X Hybrid cross, or Hybrid X Pure Strain Cross = Large Majority Mutts / Mixed individuals, and Low amount of truly Hybrid Individuals.

If you allow hybrids to mate with purebred species B, or A, or another hybrid, then the product will very likely not be what you were expecting, and you will not see the full benefits of heterosis.

That kind of makes the whole having hybrids thing pointless if you aren't carefully managing and selecting which individuals are going to mate with one another. Seems like more trouble than it is worth to me?

P.S.

I am sure that hybrids have their role in pond management, but I am not aware of the sex linked or sex limited traits that may prove beneficial. I don't claim to know anything when it comes to fishes. I am more of a production / companion animal kind of guy when it comes to genomics and animal breeding strategies.

I just cannot think of a single hybrid fish where the hybrid gets bigger than either of the parental species. That was my point... My one lousy genetics class in college doesn't make me geneticist that's for sure though. If anyone knows of an example of a hybrid fish that attains a max size bigger than either parental species, I'd be very interested to hear about it.

Does the HBG get larger than the GSF?

I was thinking that was a reason for not putting the GSF or HBG in a pond as you eventually end up with what is more likely the GSF which are inferior and ruin the Pond.

Maybe I misunderstood what I read but I was thinking that is what most have stated on here.

Please clarify if I am wrong.

Thanks