Did the old as dirt comment give it away? Let me ask you this do you think he knows what he is talking about or did I get suckered by an old man? Your are smart enough to figure out where I was dealing so I will assume I am talking to someone who is a lot smarter than me at this. This gives me faith in this forum because sometimes I have to wonder who I am really talking to. I really appreciate your help and I will give him a call. Like I said before I have not fished for them really at all at this point because I assume (I hate that word) that they are not big enough as of yet. Then on the other hand I have caught many bass that have hit a lure twice there size. This spring I will see what I can come up with at that point they will be almost two full years of age I should get something. Thanks Did you see my post on fountains ? Thers a place near here in marietta that sells fountain/areators, they say they do both and are just what I need they suck from about three to four feet, Whats you take on that? thanks again, Ben