Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Lagemouths vs Smallmouths

I have been on this forum for several weeks now and have received a wealth of informtion & advice. Thank you. Now just one more question. What would be the pros or cons of stocking smallmouths vs largemouths? Largemouths feed on bluegills Smallies? Can they live together?
Thanks,
Dan

Hey Dan

Been watching your posts - insatiable appetite, great questions, you're totally obsessed...and I love it! There's a ton of great info on this very topic - I would definitely recommend ordering all PB back issues and reading! I did that this Summer and have read every issue several times.

At any rate - I will chip in with my experience but Ewest, Bill Cody, Theo, Sunil etc. can dig a lot deeper than I. I faced the same decision three years ago as you and elected to stock SMB. Why? First off, I enjoy catching SMB over LMB. Also, SMB fisheries in my geography [Eastern NE] are rare to nonexistent. I can fish 50 farm ponds within 20 minutes and catch all the BG and LMB I can handle, but have to drive 6 hours for good SMB. Another consideration is that you can always change your SMB pond to a LMB one by adding a dozen LMB, but it would be nearly impossible to change your LMB fishery into a SMB one unless you apply Rotenone the entire BOW and start over.

You want to try a SMB/LMB fishery? Dr Dave Willis has performed extensive research on this topic and you'll need to be prepared to supplementally stock SMB every few years to keep their populations viable as LMB will outcompete the SMB and you'll have little to no natural SMB reproduction. Bear in mind the existence of 17" LMB will necessitate stocking advanced SMB fingerlings which are FAR more expensive and difficult to locate. 6-8" fish to be safe at $.50-$1.00/inch...that's a significant fiscal commitment.

Stocking recommendations for SMB fisheries? I encourage you to get with Bill, Ewest, and Dave Willis on this to verify:

Suggested species to stock for SMB fishery in MY GEO - FHM/GSH as forage, RES [Redear Sunfish], perhaps YP as additional predator or HSB and of course your SMB.

GSH may find have difficulty surviving your climate, perhaps a spotnose shiner would be better acclimated?

RES may not make it through your climate - they are native to more southerly climates...BG are too prolific for the SMB to handle. PS [Pumpkinseeds] are native to WI but are also very prolific and could pose a problem? For a northern pond I'm not sure what panfish would be ideal for the SMB fishery. An expert will provide some guidance here.

Regardless of whatever approach you take, I would recommend stocking copious amounts of forage ASAP and allowing them to establish and multiply over several months to a year prior to stocking any predator fish.

Thanks for your post- Great bunch of people here

^What he said. I have learned more than I ever thought I would simply from reading Bill's recent SMB articles. Amazing resource Dan. You'll catch yourself using a highlighter and making cliff notes.

I want SMB so bad i can taste it. As a new pond owner, and with a neglected pond full of over populated LMB I cannot do it easily if at all. Makes me be looking at the potential 2nd pond on my property and when i walk it, i imagine smallies languishing up against those big rocks. http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z12/rawaits/IMG00414-20090228-1452.jpg?t=1258040442

underwater area of potential pond imagine the smallies cruising between the rocks.

Farmer Rick, just hover over the photo on photobucket, then lighlight the URL. left click to copy, then paste to your post.

We'll pretend that we didn't read that you are debasing your Pond Boss magazines with a highlighter.




The process has begun. First you desire one pond. And you toil at bending that pond to do your bidding. But then one pond is not enough, so you think to yourself "sure one pond is good, but if I only had two ponds, yes with two ponds I would be able to raise a variety of species of fish, yes two ponds will do the trick." And then after your second pond you feel restless and begin to develop facial ticks. You know something is is wrong but you're just not sure what it is. And one day it hits you. The problem is you need a third pond.

And this process continues until you have eight ponds. But alas those eight ponds are still not enough, you feel the need to manage other peoples ponds, so, despite everyone telling you you're crazy to do so, you create a business managing ponds. But even that is still not enough pondage in your life so you write books about ponds and create a magazine about ponds and a forum about ponds, you go on radio and TV and talk about ponds, you go to conferences about ponds. But this is STILL not enough, so you create your own pond conference. You talk about ponds, you write about ponds, you eat food from ponds, you dream about ponds. All ponds all of the time.

Think I'm exaggerating? I happen to know a person (who shall remain anonymous to protect the guilty) that this happened to. Trust me once you get hooked on Pondage your life will never be the same.

Farmer Rick - Firstly, smallies will live and reproduce well in your region and climate. Secondly, they won't do that in a pond, even a large pond if LMB are present. I am not sure how big or diverse a water body has to be to get smallie recruitment when LMB dominate the fishery. In special or exceptional situations, one could get a smallie spawn in the presence of LMB but successful recruitment is even a more remote possibility. Maybe not impossible but very rare. Very few if any have ever reported successful smallie recruitment with LMB dominate.

As I see it, you have two main options to get a full fledged or true smallie pond. 1. Renovate your existing pond. Drawdown your existing pond and rotenone the low pool. While the pond is at low pool you can add structure, reshape bottom areas and overall revitalize the pond. 2. Build a new pond. I have numerous very good smallie ponds near me that are only 1/3 acre.

Thanks Bill Well my wife who has been referred to as the deputy pond monitor in earlier posts would become the full sheriff of the pond and i would be reduced to assistant deputy if i were to talk seriously about rotenoning OUR fish. She is a fish hugger to the max. Really a complete animal lover. So i have to deal with the pond i have by making it better with existing lifeforms in it.

However that is a segue to the 2nd pond which i have lusted/dreamed about since before we closed on the property. It would be 2-3 acres and it would be dedicated to SMB. I used to fish with my dad and there is nothing more fun than catching one. To have a pond at which i could catch 'em would be as my grandmother would say, "the cats pajamas."

JHAP i think that is a great way to migrate to multiple ponds. I would never have the knowledge of said guilty party, but would not mind having a few more ponds. Now that i have found PB, maybe i could have extra some fun with them. I am certainly enjoying the pond i have more than if i had not found PB. My (and my wife's)thanks to all here for the fabulous community of pond help! Rick

Dantheman - As Omaha mentioned the 5 articles in Pond Boss magazine have lots of good details for raising smallies in ponds (Mar-Apr, May-Jun, Jul-Aug, Sep-Oct, Nov-Dec 2009). The articles also reference (list) other earlier PBosss articles dealing with smallies. There has been a lot of discussions and information about raising smallies in past post topics on this forum. Use the search feature to locate many of them. Someone might be helpful enough to provide some links to the better ones. There is post in the Q&A Observations Archive about building spawning beds for smallies.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92626#Post92626
One of the above articles was devoted primarily to smallie spawning. If I had a little more time I would create an archive about smallies. Most of my free time is spent working on more articles for the magazine.

The PBoss articles discuss various compatable fish for a smallie pond. The key to getting the best growth rates of the smallies is having AMPLE numbers of the CORRECT SIZES of forage items (invertebrates and fish) for all sizes of the smallies that comprise the pond fishery. Another key item is to manage the smallie numbers to achieve the desired goal/s. Main goals are a variety of sizes with few large individuals or trophy, numerous large sizes.

Catching SMB are the cat's pajamas, Rick! Well stated.

I think you are onto something here...picture this:

Pond 1: Trophy BG and get your LMB thinned to the point where you are seeing some growth, say lots of 3-4# with an occasional 7+

Pond 2: SMB, Redears, YP, HSB

You can spend half the day catching pig BG and LMB then walk 50 ft and catch 4 other trophy species. Can be done...how cool would that be?

That sounds darn good, TJ. Familiar, even.

I'm not sure that YP will do "well" for Rick since he is in Alabama. For those in states with warmer climates (summers with lots of 90F+ days and water temps for weeks at or above 92F), and if YP are introduced, a strain that is raised at farms using shallow ponds would be a necesssity. My experiences are that YP are more of a coolwater fish than SMB or walleye. IMO the forage fish a little more appropriate for him would involve FHM, GS, Lake chubsuckerss (LCS), and RES. Since the LCS grow to be a good sized soft rayed forage fish (typically 6"-12") using them the would be more appropriate if his goal is raising a higher percentage of bigger smallies. Crayfish should also be a part of the forage base.

Bill

Could aeration help address some of the risk of stocking a cool water fish [YP] into a warm water BOW? This YP question has also been raised for TX.

To help mitigate risk one would stock a warm water tolerant YP strain AND would aeration help the equation by mixing the water therefore keeping temps somewhat lower? Does it work that way?

It would be cool, dam good and fine as frog hair. I need to try to determine if Lake Weiss (big reservoir within a mile of me) has YP of any strain. I am a novice but it seems to me if they are there, i Might have a chance with them, event tho a small bow will get warmer than the big lake.

TJ57 - Generally the more one aerates (bottom diffusers) a pond the more the bottom water approaches the ambient air temps. Thus aeration almost always warms the bottom zone while moving oxygenated water to the same area. The main exception is hypolimnetic aerators. Thus the air temperatures have a lot to do with how warm a pond gets even with aeration. A well mixed pond generally has a 1-2F temperature difference between top and bottom. Controlled or timed aeration can in some instances oxygenate the deep water while maintaing a cooler water zone. To do this effectively one needs a DO meter to monitor the conditions and have a "good handle" on all the things that cause DO loss.

Farmer Rick - Often larger lakes are deeper than ponds. This and the trophic status of the lake can provide a temporary cooler water refuge for the YP that is not available in ponds. If the lake has YP, they could survive in your pond. However much better chances of survival will be using a strain of YP produced in shallow ponds in your geographic region. Wild YP often have at least one type of internal or external parasite. Lake Erie YP often have red worms internally. Inland YP often have grubs of some sort. Tapeworms, trematodes, and flukes can also be problems in wild fish.

Thank you Bill for taking the time to answer my post. I will resarch the links you mentioned. Thanks again!

Thanks from me as well Bill. Great information.

My pond was originally an LMB pond when we bought it.

Over the years, we introduced SMB. Then, we got lucky, and got some brood stock SMB over 15".

For a few years after that, you would catch more smallies than LMB.

Now things have turned back to more LMB than SMB.

I am restocking SMB hopefully in the next week, and will also start a more rigid culling program for LMB.

I've always had SMB reproduction, but probably much less now.

If fact, I once saw a nest that had two SMB and one large LMB in it.

But as the studies show, and the experts say, the LMB will take over. So you just have to restock SMB from time to time if you want that kind of mix.

I stocked SMB last fall. Also BG, FHM and some 6" Brown trout.

This fall the SMB are about 5-8" long - They wintered over well and have feasted all year on BG fry and FHM (so have the trout).

I went with SMB so that I can have put and taker trout as well - It would be difficult to do tis with LMB. So far this year - the SMB & trout kept the BG hatch in check. I'll know more next spring - but my fathead minnow fry seemed to fare better than the BG fry. I was and still am worried that the SMB and Trout will not keep the BG in check. Should this happen - I'll put in LMB. I'm waiting to do that as a last resort - because it will start the replacement of SMB by LMB (maybe 3-4yrs down the line).

FH

FH

Your research will be valuable - I'm in your same position with BG and RES in my YP/SMB/HSB pond. I'm hoping through culling all Female BG I catch I can keep up with them. If not, I'll add 10 single sex LMB at a time and judge their impact. I could also add a few Tiger Muskie but I know they'll also target everything else including my SMB, YP and smaller HSB. Not something I want to risk at this point.

I wonder if chain pickerel could make it in NE? To my knowledge they are not present in any Eastern NE lakes...but there are very few well fed aerated BOW's in Eastern NE!

CP would do fine in NE waters. The question is the where do you get the CP from? No wild sources in NE and I do not know of any hatcheries that sell them in the area either...

TJ -- there are grass pickerel in Lewis and Clark Reservoir and in quite a few of the Sandhill lakes. However, they are a lot smaller than chain pickerel. At Pony Lake on the Valentine Refuge, the biggest we caught was about 10 inches, and most were 6-8 inches. Send me an email or PM me an email address, and I'll send you the paper. Knowing your interest, you might like to see the information.

F-H in most ponds of a few acres or less trapping , seining and harvest should be enough along with the SMB and BT predation to control BG #s. I would try those before I put in LMB. Keep us posted on what you see.