Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Two fold question When to add perch and SMB and Where do the Fatheads go in Summer

Here goes for my next set of questions. I just got a call from my fish supplier and he said my SMB and Y Perch are ready for me. I put in my fatheads this year around first ice out ( in my area around late April early May. ) I have had many spawns of fatheads since and see many many many little ones at the surface. Should I start stocking the game fish or should I wait? I know the basic answer is to wait a year but just have to "test the waters' again on this. Also since I have added the areator system I dont see my larger fatheads anymore. DO they disperse in the Summer or do they go deeper? Is it based on seasonal issues or more likely the areation system? I seem to still see some smaller ones showing up and have multiple sizes of new minnows so I think they are still there but not totally sure. Just thought I would ask.

Also as a refresher, I have a slightly less than .25 acre pond max depth 14 ft and average 10 ft in Upstate NY. The pond was put in last fall.

Thanks again!!

Fathead adults are busy spawning and usually not readily apparent unless not enough spawning areas are present. It is common to see immature fatheads around the edges. With no predators in the pond to force the minnows to shallow water refuge areas a big portion of the minnows will stay in the security of deeper water. Start feeding the minnows and lots more will show up.

You can stock perch any time between now and next spring. If it was my pond I would not add SMB until you get at least one perch spawn and see fingerling perch (most likely in your case next Aug thru Oct 2005. Both now or one now and one later. Both ways will work. You can stock SMB now but OVERALL the fishery will not be as good as if you waited till fall 2005 for the SMB; (perch will be bigger quicker, bass will grow faster, minnows will last longer).

The hatchery will push for a SMB stocking this year to make a sale now rather than later. They think you could even change your mind and use someone else or stock a different species. I doubt they have your best interests in mind. Plus they usually always talk generalities and have little concern for your specific desires, needs, or concerns.

If you are stocking perch as fingerlings you are fine but if you are putting in adults or if you are stocking heavy I would wait till spring. Yellow perch in northern ponds are hard on fatheads. They totally wipe them out fast in ponds without lots of cover. I am in Wisconsin and primarily raise perch without feeding. There is absolutely no such thing as too big of a forage base and the winter will give the fatheads born this year time to grow and find hiding places. We see the the fatheads swimming under the ice so they do stay fairly active in the winter.

Thanks Guys that’s what I thought around the fatheads but nice to hear from someone else as well. My supplier has 1-2" perch for me to put in right away and the same size for the SMB. I think I will put off the SMB till next year as per your suggestion. I think overall I have a good amount of fatheads for my size pond. I put in about 7 # overall throughout the year thus far and have seen many spawns so far as well. I have some deep structure but have many pallets and rocks in 6 - 12" for them to spawn on as well and the grass around the shore is starting to really take hold and provide some structure, There are also some roots that go into the pond ( dug pond )and they seem to like them as well.

My supplier wanted me to put in about 500 perch and 500 SMB. From what I gathered here I think that’s way too much for my small little pond. I was thinking more in the range of 100 perch and 50 bass in the 1 - 2 inch range is more appropriate. But if I hold back on the bass till next year would I want more because the perch might be snacking on them as well?

Ahhh the more you learn the more you realize you know squat. Thanks for the ideas and reassurance!!

Eric - 500 perch and 500 SMB in a 0.25 acre pond is very unrealistic especially without artificial feeding. Based on this, I would always get a second opinion from whatever this fish hatchery guy tells you. 100 perch is about correct for a 0.25 acre with out feeding. If you stock even fewer perch (75-80) they will grow faster but more importantly the minnows will last longer.

100 perch growing in your region one year from now with ample food should have lengths that range between 5" to 8" (July05). To get to this size they should consume about 100 lbs of minnows plus invertebrates during the next year. This is why Brian says they tend to wipe fatheads out fast without lots of cover. Fatheads are slow swimmers and quite vulnerable to perch predation.

Extrapolating;; with fatheads at 1.5", there are about 740 per pound. 100 lbs of fatheads equals about 70,000 fatheads. Hopefully your pond has enough to maintain growth of 100 perch. That is only 700 fatheads per each perch's consumption for one whole year. They could eat 2 or 3 small minnows per day when feeding good and water is above 50F. Perch also feed often in late fall, under ice in winter and in early spring for egg development which starts in August. This food base estimate may be on the low side. I know it is on the low side for larger perch than those you will have the first year.

Keep us posted on your progress. Come to this same "Two Fold Question When to.." topic post, and add to it, every now and then so we can learn more about the growth of perch, fatheads, and SMB in small NY ponds. I am especially interested in how the fatheads are doing and about the current perch growth & sizes. Sample them occassionally with hook and line. Perch will readily bite a small hook (No.6 or 8) with piece of worm once they are 3" long. If 2" perch are stocked now in your pond they should easily be 3" long by middle of August; and 5" to 6" buy end of October. Report back on growth, let's see how far I miss the estimates.

FYI. This year's perch hatch in my pond are 2.5"-3.5" long (July 10). I am about same latitude and growing regiion as you. The hatchery perch are crowded and not getfing enough to eat, thus they are smaller. This is fairly typical for fish at many hatheries.

Thanks Bill. I will take your advice and go with 50-75 perch to start with. I want to keep the fatheads going and not kill them off before everything is totally established. I will also come back and give some updates as they grow.

Funny thing about setting up a pond, I thought that the most fun I would have is catching the fish. In truth I am enjoying setting up the eco system more and seeing things come together and finding new bugs/animals/wildlife in and around it each and every day. I saw just the other day that I had the darning needly and dragon fly hatch on the pond and found some red dragon flys around it as well. Ahhh well I gues I find pleasure in the simple things.

Thanks again and talk soon.

Looks like you are on the right track to me. The perch will be able to grow the first year enough to avoid being eaten by the small bass stocked next spring. The perch will spawn in the spring if they get good growth this summer. My perch spawned after less than a year. The bass will be able to eat the baby perch too. Perch spawn very early.

Eric - You will find that growing fish and managing them can be more fun than harrassing them and jerking them around by the jaw with a hook and line.

Eric,

I'd like to echo Bill's comment about keeping us posted. The combination of Perch and SMB has piqued my interest and being a NY pond owner, I'm very interested in your results.

Bill's three part article on raising yellow perch, which appeared in FPH magazine, is well stocked with information. I'm also waiting to see Dr. Willis' second installment on SMB.

Side note: Has anyone received the July/Aug issue of PB yet?

Russ

Thanks I will let you all know whats happening. This coming Monday the Yellow Perch go into the pond. ( around 75 of them ) I thought it wasnt a bad price at $0.20 each and if I wanted the bass $0.25 each. I cant wait to get them in. I feel sort of like an Inn keeper, I have readied their place and have food water and tons of aeration and waiting now for the special guests. I did also get a new member to the pond. I have a 8 - 10 inch painted turtle that has adopted it as home. Well the fun continues!!!

Eric....where is your supplier located. Does he also have walleye and if so what price for what size? The price for perch and smb looks good.

Rowly

He is Located in Geneseo NY and this year he has Walleye Perch and LMB. He stockes what people request from year to year, thus if you want a certain type of fish he will raise them for you as long as it is cost effective from what he has told me. I am not sure of the Walleye price or size. But you can reach him at (585) 243-3543. The place is called Coolwater Fish Farm and his name is Ted. I understand that he has shipped fish as well to other places but not sure of how far away or how much it costs. I stop by and pick mine up. Good luck!!

Eric, great thanks I will drop him a line.

Rowly

Rowly, those are really good prices... I wonder how tricky it'd be to 'smuggle' a tank of fry across the border...

Know anyone with a cigraette smugling boat?

His name is Ted and I talked to him yesterday as I picked up my perch. He said he ships as far as Portland. Thus I don't know about the border thing but when I picked up the perch he gave me an extra 25% at no cost, just to take care of any who might be lost in transit. None were !!! Ahhh well they are now in the pond happy and eating away at my poor fatheads. But thats the way life is I guess.

Eric - So with the extra 25% fish how many perch were stocked?.

Was the size quoted (1"-2") accurate?

I only stocked about 75 in my pond and gave the rest to my friend in his pond. The size was about right 1 - 2 inches.

Pottsy:

Do ya think MNR will ever give me a permit? 2-3" walleye fingerling for $1.15 and half the trip length to Belleville area. Is Lenard's or anyone else selling them up your way at this time and approx. cost.

Rowly

Permit to import across the border when there are Canadian suppliers... hmmm... not likely.

Leonard's didn't impress me... the service and responsiveness that is. I prefer Pure Springs near Belleville

Pure Springs
Shannonville
Tony Cosh
613-396-5490
Fatheads 2"+ 1000 $80.00 1 week notice
Walleye 2" $1.50 June (order)
Largemouth 1"+ $1.50 July (order)
Rainbow 6-8" $1.40 All year
Speckled 6-8" $1.65 All year

Just an Update. Over the Summer, the Perch have grown from about 2 - 3 inches to 5 - 6 inches. I have only seen a few but I am not too worried about that, as there is allot of deep water for them to play in and they are currently the top of the food chain. I had thought I had lost all of my breeding fatheads and rosy reds because I couldn’t see them anymore, but I keep seeing tons and tons of very small to fairly large minnows around. ( I think I went from about 2,500 minnows to somewhere around 2,000,000 so far.) They are all over the place. I have one larger and one smaller painted turtle living in the pond now.

I am now seeing a fairly large splash and circle around when I feed my fatheads. Seems something is boiling up on the minnows as they feed and making a snack of them. It appears to be a larger fish, ( Bass I am guessing ) that made its way in through the feeder creek while I was refilling my pond after I lowered it to build a more permanent inlet dam system. Time will tell what is in there now.

I have tons of frogs ( at last count somewhere in the 50 - 60 range ) made up of peepers, leopard, and bullfrogs. I am also seeing tons of tadpoles, mainly bullfrogs.

I am doing my best to keep the Heron off the pond using a decoy heron and thus far seems to be working.

I just thought I would give an update and thank you all for the great advice that is making this a fun hobby. I will try sometime to figure out a way to attach a picture up here for all to see the pond.

Thanks again and talk soon!!

As far as I know, and I could be wrong, yellow perch don't spawn untill they are at least 3yrs. I am also very interested in your results because I will have YP in my pond, maybe even this spring.

If yellow perch growth is average or slightly better, the males can spawn at age one whereas females will spawn first time at age two or three. Slower growth delays first spawn a year.

I was doing some research on YP and came across this thread. It discusses some of my issues, so I thought I'd bring it back to life.

I put 10 lbs of 1" - 2" FH's in my 1/2 acre pond a month ago. I'm seeing a lot of very small minnows swimming around, but don't know if they are FH. The reason I question that is the pond is fed by an itermittant stream and I saw a few minnows in it before I stocked. Should I be concerned that since fish apparently swam in, they may all leave too? The stream is VERY small, leading to a swamp almost a 1/2 mile away.
2nd question: I was thinking about stocking BG now, then LMB in the spring. The soil and conservation people sell fish every fall, but I just found out this year they will not offer any BG. They do have YP in the 3"-5" range. Will these be as good for forage as BG? Is this size ok? If I go with the YP, should I wait until next fall to stock the LMB?
Thanks for any help you can offer.

YP do not make as good a forage as BG, since they 1) spawn but once a year and 2) compete with LMB to eat small fish. IIRC YP tend to need restocked periodically in the presence of LMB.

That said, I think I'd take the cheap DNR YP and stock BG on my own (if possible - ain't NY a more permit controlled state than most wrt pond stocking?).

Follow-up stocking time for LMB would depend on their size AND YP/BG spawning. You want those bass to fall asleep hungry and wake up with their bellies full (to quote the Muleshoe Motormouth) of forage about 1/3 their body length, without having to eat your original forage fish stockers.

Outdoor - My experience is that LMB will not grow as large solely on YP as forage compared to LMB with BG for forage. Reasons have a lot to do with Theo's answer.

1. Minnows from stream that spawned in your pond will not leave the pond, at least most of them will not leave. The species of minnows from the swamp stream could be any of several species including sunfish. LMB (& YP) will probably do a good job of controlling or eventually eliminating the minnows providing they are not carp. If carp you may have somewhat of a problem. Unless you know what species of fish spawned in your pond, I would stock LMB this fall to make sure the hatchling fish do not get out of control or too large for predation. If you want BG find a local pond with a good population of true BG (not hybrids or green sunfish) and add 8-20 juveniles (4"-6")or adults per 0.5 acre this fall or next spring.