Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Too Late to Stock???

I read the article, I think it's a bit over dramatic. GSF can be a problem, but IME when BG and LMB are stocked with them, within a few years they get out competed and make up a very small percentage of the pond's biomass. I have dealt with ponds that were nearly 100% pure GSF. After stocking LMB and BG, within 5 years, 8 out of 10 sunfish caught were BG. Within 10 years more than 9 out of 10 were BG.

Having large GSF or HBG in your pond concerns since you just stocked fingering BG and HSB. Those GSF/HBG will eat those fingerlings with gusto. HSB are fast, so they will give GSF a run for their money and BG got piles of spines, but GSF have big mouths.

I remember your post on the construction of your pond. It was excavated without any stream or creek flowing into it correct? If so, what is the stocking history of your pond? I am just curious how the GSF may have gotten into the pond...

I know Suttle Fish personally having done business with them before. They are an honest and valued hatchery and provide fish to several state agencies and universities for studies. They are good people. While I do not agree with them on somethings they are not high pressure with sales as they sell out their stock except brood fish every year.

That is their opinion on GSF not HBG. Many agree with that opinion and their is much here on the subject. Here is a thread HBG pic/question - http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1341&Number=14459#Post14459



IMO your pic is a HBG and is the reciprocal cross not usually sold by hatcheries (mGSF X fBG ). Probably a natural cross. HBG are 90% +- males and because of that do not reproduce in quantities sufficient to provide forage for LMB. The rare female HBG has low fecundity as well. They can be used in a put and take fishery but the LMB will not grow well because of the lack of food.

If you catch another one of those possible HBG/GSF flip back the gill flap and take a close up pic of the gill rakers... Then we'll know for sure whether it is a HBG or GSF.

http://www.suttlefish.com/trophy_bluegill.html

Note that he says he doesn't like HBG; he lists several perceived shortcomings to them, then goes on to say that he recommends pond owners stock CNBG instead. As of this moment they have a page on their website devoted to HBG, though said page obviously conflicts with the one linked above; as of a couple weeks ago, the last time I looked at their page, they weren't selling HBG at all, hence my previous post. I have nothing whatsoever against them as a hatchery and only said to take their advice on this subject with a grain of salt as HBG are a widely-recommended fish.

From the article cited above :

"Dr. Marty Brunson has conducted extensive research concerning the Hybrid Bluegill from Mississippi State University, an expert in the field. He is the author of a paper on the Hybrid Bluegill titled �Managing Hybrid Sunfish in Mississippi Farm Ponds�. I ask you to read his article and make your own mind up on which Bluegill you want to stock in your pond. This is only fair to both sides that you look at all the facts first--then decide before investing your money and time."

That does not sound like a biased article to me . Plus he says clearly "I am very prejudiced" - his opinion. Some of what he states while true is a blanket statement which by its nature is dangerous in pond mgt. A little more looking would reveal the Dr. Brunson is one of the top HBG experts alive. He has written several peer reviewed studies for the AFS on HBG , was the Co-op Ext. PhD for fisheries ( FS professor at MSU) , was the lead writer/editor on the MS Fisheries Pond Mgt book which recommends HBG for put and take ponds. As I said I don't agree with all Suttle says often because he parrots what the old pond manuals contain often not considering that each situation as different and that new science - the cutting edge is changing. He does produce good fish which is what a hatchery is for.

Sounds like I need to read that article by Dr. Brunson. I'm always up for learning more about bluegill of any strain.

Clay,
I wouldn't be too concerned with the HBG. I am no expert like the others on here, but I think the reason most dislike the GSF is that it competes with smaller LMB for food and can reduce growth in some situations. HBG grow very large very quick and are pretty good fighters on ultralight equipment. If you decide you don't want them in the pond, catch some and have a fish fry! From my experience they are not too picky with lures and you could catch a good portion of them out of your pond if you wished. I don't know hw good your fish Id skills are, but a big BG with yellow on hhe fins is almost always a HBG

If they are in fact HBG, if you have a decent LMB population through fishing by removing the original stockers, natural mortality and the LMB preying on the few offspring they produce, within 3-5 years, you'll see few to any HBG left.

we correct presence of gSF or HBG by stocking adult (4-5") bluegill. Over time speeds up the result of more bluegill and less gsf genetics.

lmoore good post ! Here it is from the FS noted above who IMO is the HBG expert.


Evaluation of Male Bluegill X Female Green Sunfish Hybrids for

Stocking Mississippi Farm Ponds

MARTIN W. BRUNSON and H. RANDALL ROBINETTE

NorthA mericanJ ournalo f FisherieMs anagemen6t: 156-167, 1986

� Copyrighbt y the AmericanF isheriesS ociety1 986


" However, perhaps more important
to the angler is the presumed high catchability of

hybrid sunfish. This vulnerability to hook-and-line

capture has been alluded to by many authors

but relatively few experimental data exist to substantiate

such statements. Childers (1967) cited

one instance where a population of more than

10,000 BG x GS hybrids was decimated by anglers

during the first week of fishing"



"The total catch of

146 hybrids during the 2-h period was 21% of the

population. Catch per effort at Britt Pond was 22.4

fish/angler-hour, and the total catch of 403 fish

was 66% of the population. These high catch rates,

especially at Britt Pond, once again confirm the

aggressiveness and vulnerability of the BG x GS

hybrid, and point to the importance of strict control

of harvest in hybrid ponds. Especially significant

is the effect that poachers can have on a

hybrid population. A few hours of unauthorized

fishing could have a drastic effect on the fish population."



"The pond owner must be aware of the pros and

the cons of hybrid stocking. Hybrids should not

be stocked with other sunfish species. Management

must be intensive and should include catch

restrictions, record keeping, and subsequent restocking.

Hybrid sunfish ponds are primarily a

"trophy bream" situation and largemouth bass

growth may be less than optimum unless a supplemental

forage is made available. Security of the

pond from poaching is imperative. However, the

advantage of producing large easily caught sunfish

will, for many pond owners, outweigh the inconvenience

and expense of restocking, harvest regulations,

and pond security--especially for those

with commercially oriented ponds. The BG x GS

hybrid, when properly stocked into clean ponds

and managed correctly, provides an attractive alternative

to the bluegill for many pond situations

in Mississippi and probably in other southeastern

states as well."

I get lucky every once in a while.

Well, it appears that I hit on a popular, if not controversial, subject. Last week I installed a second fish feeder so I have two now which should give everybody ample time to get big and fat. We have been fishing a few times lately and here are some more pictures.

While I have read every post on this thread, I am afraid I am no more clear on what I have and what I SHOULD have in my pond. For whatever reason, this past weekend we caught a lot more of the fish that resembled the GSF than the HBG.

Here is a pic of what most of the fish looked like:

PHOTO #1 - Small dot on back of gills


PHOTO #2 - No significant dot on gills


PHOTO #3


PHOTO #4 - Good comparison of a couple of fish

I'm no expert by any stretch, but I'm not sure any of these fish look like green sunfish.

The fish in the third pic looks to have some HBG in it?

They look to me to have as much or more BG in them than anything else.

Mostly BG but could have some HBG/GSF genes in them . Not GSF though.

All look like BG to me.

I second (or third) that they're all bluegill. Contestant #3 might have just a teensy bit of HBG in him; maybe his mom saw a picture of one in a magazine while the regular-strain male bluegill was milting the nest. But I'd be more inclined to say he's one of your new arrival CNBG.

With two feeders running on a pond that size, in TX, you can grow some monster bluegill. This time of year you should feed at least twice a day; I have all my feeders running three times a day and the bluegill are eating like the apocalypse is tomorrow and someone sent them advance notice.

I would agree, All look like bluegill to me.

I am sure you guys are right. Maybe I am getting too wrapped up in the color instead of their body shape. I saw where a fish's color was largely influenced by the water color. Maybe this explains why the fish in picture #3 are so different. Maybe one was a fish that has spent its entire life in my pond and the other one is one of my recent additions. That being said, I still think that there is a difference because of the different shaped forehead and mouth.

They all appear to be standard BG to me too. The HBGxBG crosses that have come from my pond still have yellow tips on the fins. Of course my HBG are GSFxBG.

Could there be a little CNBG in Makoclay's third BG bottom pic?

HBG


Standard BG (looks a lot like Makoclay's)


HBGxBG

I thought the same thing about that third fish possibly having some CNBG in it, Ryan. Another year should tell the tale either way.

That 3rd fish is a little different. I don't see any CNBG characteristics in it (ones other than those in regular BG). No yellow/orange fin coloration , no wide bars , no copper band , no white/light pencil edges to the fins and can't count the fin rays. It looks like there is some non-BG traits in the color pattern but I don't know what.


PHOTO #3

The shape of the nose of this one looks quite a bit different than the BG around here, more like the CNBG posted by others but there is a huge variance in profiles and colors even in local waters and it very well might just be the angle or lighting.

I thought I saw a little bit of those nose & gill plate striations (sp?) or markings that you see on some hybrids. I thought maybe with the more murky water, the colors weren't popping as much.

Take a photo of the gill rakers of suspect fish. That can really help in identifying parentage.