Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose smallmouth question

I'm a pondboss newbie,4 month subscriber, with a new 1 1/2 acre pond.It's deepest water is 19-20 ft.Water clarity is a work in progress,with 1-2 ft. visability I have just stocked it with 30 lbs of fatheads, 250 BG 1-2",and 200 RES 1-2".I'm also planning on putting in a box of Anderson GSH. The lake has lots of rocky shoreline and steep dropoffs, added brush, and big tree stumps.My question is whether the smallies will be able to keep up with the BG.I am particularly fond of smallmouth but will stock largemouth in the fall if you guys think it's a bad idea.I expect moderate to heavy pole and line pressure on the BG

Hey Verdehoy - Welcome aboard!

Many experts here - but I thought I'd take a shot at this because I recently posed all these questions on the forum as our projects sound pretty similar. With that in mind I'll offer what I've been taught by the experts on the forum and relate it here.

SMB will prey on the FM and GSH primarily for forage - because they are soft rayed and easy to swallow [there's a biological term for this type of fish I don't know], and alone probably aren't enough to keep your BG populations in check. Harvest will be important which sounds like you're willing to do.

What I am doing to help limit the BG population is introducing FEMALE LMB only to prevent reproduction which would impact my SMB project negatively.

Bottom line is I think your project sounds great and you are well on your way. I wouldn't abandon your SMB plans...once you introduce M/F LMB they are permanent. Maybe try your plans for a few years without any LMB presence and see if your angling and the SMB can keep up with the BG. Another apex predator that might provide limited assistance is the Hybrid Striped Bass [Wiper]. You can always ADD LMB [I'd suggest going female only] later, but can't undo fish stockings nearly as easily.

We would love to see some pics of your pond!

Thanks for the great info! I was thinking that maybe the GSH may raid some BG nests or work on the fry for me . Have you ever heard of destroying some of the BG beds on the fringe of a colony,leaving the dominate males near the center to do their thing? If thats a stupid idea, just tell me, as I do not take anything personally. I'll probably try the SMB in the fall.We're going to aerate and feed to help the BG.I may look for a local Wiper source too,but I'm afraid they'll be pretty hard on the other forage as well.I'll see if I can figure out how to post some pics.Any thoughts are appreciated.Thanks again.

All your fish [GSH, SMB, BG, RES] will pound the BG fry and they help. I have never encountered your theory of disturbing BG beds - but I'm not a fisheries biologist either. I'm sure some other guys can weigh in here and provide some feedback. I can say the forum would welcome the research any of your experiments yield in terms of how to control the BG population...it's a common goal for many pond managers like you and me.

HSB [Wipers] will focus almost exclusively on pellets if you are planning on a supplemental feeding program [which I recommend]. I am not worried about their impact on my pond - I stocked them as a bonus fish that could reach 15+ lbs and also to help knock off BG.

I am also stocking my SMB in the Fall once my forage from last Summer has had a full year to establish itself. I am fully prepared to make corrective and supplemental stockings in the future to maintain the fish populations I want. It's just a fact I've come to accept.

Of course, LMB would pretty much answer your BG population issues - but ask yourself: Isn't a 20" SMB caught topwater on UL tackle on a brisk Autumn day and breaching the water 12 times before it comes to your float-tube worth it?

As TJ said, give the SMB a chance... You can always LMB if the BG get out of control. More northern pond owners should consider stocking their fingerling bass the same time they stock their BG, particularly if they are going the SMB route. It will up the odds the SMB will keep the BG under control. By stocking the SMB when you stock the BG, you will not allow the BG to get a jump start on the SMB and this will give the SMB a better chance. If you feed the HSB, they should hammer your forage too hard and if you think an SMB on a top water bait is fine, try a HSB!

Verde - I would have suggested you omit the BG until you saw a real need for the extra forage fish. IMO RES would have been more than enough sunfish for the SMB to control. If I wanted BG in a SMB pond I would stock only male BG thus you get big BG and not youngsters. With BG in a 1.5 ac pond I think you will have to help the SMB control the smaller BG (2"-5") with a regular summer trapping and a beach seining program that should be able to remove 600-1000 annually. Your 1.5 ac pond will need at last 600 small BG removed each year and 1000 removed might not be enough. IMO 4 10"+ LMB would remove 1000 small BG per year.

As noted by TJ SMB IMO will target the softer rayed fish compared to eating BG as a second or third choice food. First try the SMB as predators and when you see the BG getting overly abundant stock some more SMB (if not recruiting) and try the single sex LMB as suggested by TJ. first to see how that pans out. Then if you still have problems with BG add other sex of LMB. Then resign yourself as time goes buy to accept a well managed BG-LMB pond. Biggest problem with most is locating single sex LMB in any quantity.

It will be very educational if Verde came back to the PB Forum and up dated us on the status of his fishery.

Bill, thanks for the input. Any suggestions on SMB stocking #'s in my situation? I've been told they will be in the 4-5" range . Is there a thread on trapping small bluegill. I've never tried that before. Thanks

Fish Trap A trap like this will work wonders, you can remove large volumes of unwanted sunfish in short order. If you bait it, all the better!

I would go with 75 SMB in the 4"-5" range this year and then another 75 SMB next year in the same size range... Then watch for natural reproduction. If none, stock around 50 in that size range per year from then on out if no natural reproduction is seen...

The fish trap CJBS suggested is a pretty large trap. Although it does catch quite a few fish. Often a trap this big is not needed in a pond less than 3-5 acres. If we can get Bruce Condello to post a picture of his fish trap, then that is what would work good for you and be less expensive. Let see if Bruce reads this thread. There may be an old (3? yrs) photo on the forum of Bruce's trap. Maybe Eric or Theo can locate it for us. There is another good panfish trap (commercially made); I'll see if I can find the website for it.

Just so you know verdehoy, when you get advise from Bill Cody... Follow it!

Verdehoy - CJ is correct - if you do your research reading the archives and ask constructive questions when you're stuck you will save yourself 10's of thousands of dollars. I shuck you not. The world's most knowledgable and PATIENT experts are here sharing their expertise - CJ is right - follow this advice and try to give back to the forum by posting results of your projects, yield of your research, etc.

Thanks so much for all of your help.I don't know of another bunch of folks willing to help someone they have never met. I'm going to try to make the conference and meet some of you personally. Brian

If you go the route of single sex LMB, there is a strong chance that you might get some SMB/LMB crosses know as 'meanmouth' after both the SMB and LMB are of spawning age.

Verdehoy -- please keep us updated long-term on your success. Our general consensus here is that in the southern part of the country, smallies do not always reproduce very well, or at least they don't survive to the adult population. In the north country, we typically get too much reproduction in ponds, and really have to make an effort to control their abundance.

Just an add on to an already good thread. Seining , partial rotenone , or otherwise disturbing BG beds just after the spawn will reduce BG recruitment. Trapping works on the small BG. I suggest if one wants a SMB pond to use FH , GSH , and SMB. Problem with that is you only have one species to fish for. RES would help and next I would attempt YP (not in the south though).

Just to add to Eric's already good post and the good thread.

If you're in the right climate, Orange Spotted Sunfish and Pumkinseeds have been recommend - haven't tried, but would in a heartbeat.

If you're in a warmer climate, I'd also stock TShad in a moment. Adult SMB love them.

Since you've already got BG in the pond, if they're not you're target species - IMO take out anything bigger than 4-5" when you catch them. You said expect moderate to heavy pressure on them - you can't possibly do enough. You're goal would be almost to have a stunted BG population. Lots of little 1-3" BG is great for a 2+lb SMB. Let them go wild- but keep them small. I've watched my SMB eat BG, they do it, but they go after really small fish.

Oddly, I'd suggest not trapping small BG. I'd want a ton of them to compete with each other for the forage. I want the big BG gone, small ones to be eaten. Again, do things backwards to get a stunted high-density small BG population. Normally I suggest feeding BG, because it's a great way to grow them. In a SMB target situation I wouldn't feed the BG.

Another suggestion, since you're getting the shiner fry from Anderson - I'd do a box or two of broaders too. They'll put pressure on the BG fry, and would be nice to get some bigger shiners established to keep as long-term forage for the SMB.

One other bit of backwards advice, that is at best experimental (so caution), and I've not heard suggested, but I'd do in a heartbeat in a souther SMB pond. Ready for this? I'd stock green sunfish. Why? More fusiform will be good for the SMB. If not fed, won't get too big. If big, would be fun to catch. Spawns less frequently than BG. I wouldn't necessarily do if I had tons of FH as they'd just grow too big, but after the FH are gone it might be interesting. They might have an impact on SMB recruitment too, but would be interesting to see. Again, this is a bit out there. The other ideas aren't.

p.s. - be careful with stocking female LMB only. One mistake can ruin that (I speak from experience). So if you do, have a backup plan for lots of LMB swimming around! One idea of a backup plan is to make sure the LMB come in after the SMB were adults, that way you've got a good SMB pond for quite a few years.

Verdehoy -- lots of interest in smallies! They are great fun in the pond. We've learned a lot from the various pondmeisters, especially folks like Aaron M, who has been successful with smallies in Phoenix.

Verdehoy - IMO BG in with SMB are a real dilemma. I personally would not go the route of lots of small BG with SMB. Small BG might be lots of good food for SMB, but lots of small BG will prevent SMB from successfully bringing off a spawn. HOwever if you don't want recruitment of your SMB, then no problem. Overabundant stunted BG are notorious and well documented for preventing successful spawns of LMB in small ponds.

ewest mentioned that you could have only one species (SMB) to fish for. Since you are in IL and In my work with SMB two other predators can be added at reasonable numbers with SMB and not have too too many maagement problems; they are walleye and HSB. In IL acceptable panfish would be yellow perch. Buying pellet raised fish and Feeding the fish pellets will improve the fishery. Whenever I see ponds with LMB added to SMB, after a duration of a life cycle of the SMB, the LMB take over the pond unless larger sized SMB are supplimenally stocked.

Verdehoy - Bill is right on all points. Only reason I even mentioned the small BG is that I think you mentioned they're already in the pond... sometimes you've already got iced tea and you want lemonade - I was kinda recommending an Arnold Palmer. (I think that analogy works)

Aaron, your right , the BG are already in. Wish I could re-do that, I like the idea of male only BG that Bill suggested, but it' too late for that.I really don't like the sounds of a one species fishery and a bunch of stunted BG. I'm thinking of trying the idea of trapping the BG and destroying whatever BG nest that I can. I know I can't get them all and some will make it to sizes that the SMB can't eat.Maybe with feeding those can get to decent size.I'm retired and can spend some time and effort on waging war on the BG.Some adult GSH sounds like a good idea also. Do you guys think any of the GSH that I stock have a shot at adulthood or are they just feed .Re-stocking the SMB wouldn't be a problem @ .90 a piece. I guess I can always switch to LMB if things don't work out.Looks like I could have saved myself alot of trouble if I would have posted when I first subscribed. I'm still having trouble adding pics. Maybe i'll get my 16 year old daughter to try. thanks

Sounds like a plan. You'll be able to keep it in check with management. I think that's a big key - with management (time & effort) you can do a lot of interesting things with a pond.

Re the GSH. Good question. Without too many predators the GSH fry might make it to adults. Last year I stocked them and none of them made it to through the year. They did their job as feed, but this year I'm going to try some adults with the fry. I'm also going to grow out the fry to 1" before they go in - which is basically what I'm sure is happening in your pond.

We're all excited about your project, so keep us up to date. And yes, we love pics.

If you have open areas without cover or vegetation, a seine will catch a lot of BG. Also, look into buying a larger sized fish trap like the one I mentioned in the link. You can literally catch 200-300 small BG in a day with that thing. Do that enough I honestly think you can keep the BG in line. You just have to know it will take time and effort, if you're retired, you just might have time to spend doing it...

I'm trying to post some pics. hope it works.



I think posting pics is harder than trapping 2-3000 BG

I'm starting to lose some fish.Two or three a day. Mainly smallies that were stocked last fall at 4 in. and are now 9-10 in.and fat. Water temp is 86* at the surface and at the bottom. 1.75 ac with 3 diffusers from Ted. Feeding twice a day-aquamax 500. Populations of FH & GSH are very strong-literally in the millions. BG & RES look great at 8+ in.and smaller,with only moderate numbers. Water clarity is about 18-20 in. with greenish tint.Could this be summertime stress? They are currently not being fished at all.About 2 weeks ago they were caught rather easily/then shut off. Very little surface activity except at feeders. Any help would be appreciated.