Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help I think I found "The One"

Yesterday I met with a new contractor, Mr. Ronnie Rathel. From about the moment I laid eyes on him I knew he was "The One." When I arrived at my property he was out of his truck in the pasture looking over the land. As soon as a handshake was accomplished he made a wise crack about my cactus plantation and asked me how the cactus market was doing. I knew then that I liked him!

Ronnie was recommended to me by the NRCS agent. He's late fifties, medium height/build, salt and pepper messy hair, dusty boots, dirty jeans, half way tucked in shirt with a bag of chewing tobacco in the top pocket. His truck on the other hand was a thing of beauty. It's a lovely charcoal gray late model Frontier with nary a spec of dust to be seen. This thing was cleaner than my house. You could eat off the dashboard! His equipment must be pristine and well maintained if the truck is any indicator of his care. Ronnie on the other hand could use some polishing but I like him fine just as he is.

We strolled around the pond chit chatting and discussing the pond, the "Love Shack" and the obvious recreational use of 'herbaceous plant materials' (his words not mine) that must have taken place upon the property prior to our ownership. We shared several good laughs and he proved to have a wicked dry sense of humor. After our stroll we sat down and discussed what exactly I wanted for the pond and how we could accomplish that together. After hearing me out completely he scratched his head, took in a chaw of tobacco and began to tell me how and what he thought he could do to achieve what I wanted.

First off, he would breach the dam at the lowest level and drain the water back to just below the channel. Once that was accomplished, he would let the pond dry out for a few weeks or more depending upon the weather and then begin to excavate the area opposite the dam to a level of 6-8 feet. He would lessen the slope using materials from the pond and give me a nice maintainable bank. Once the pond level was dropped, he would try to identify and fix any obvious leaks in the dam from the front side if possible(no promises).

His time line for the excavation is approximately 2 weeks. His total estimate was $7K. His hourly machine rate is $90.

As we were leaving he got out of his truck, waited for me to pass, and locked the gate behind us. None of the other contractors had done this. They just drove off leaving me with a face full of dust. I don't demand or expect special treatment just because I am a woman and found his actions to be a wonderful complement. Chivalry is not dead!

Needless to say I hired him. Not because of his sense of humor or his gentlemanly behavior, not because of price, but because he was the only one out of four contractors that came up with a common sense approach, listened to me and seemed genuinely concerned with the outcome. The other contractors all wanted to dig the pond out with the water in it, thus requiring multiple machines and a huge price tag. (It sounded to me like they wanted to serve milkshakes in a sieve.) Their recommendations seemed like overkill and more difficult than the actual job required.

Does this sound like a logical approach to you pond gurus out there?

Yes provided he fixes the dam. I still suggest you go see some of his pond work first.

What do you mean by "fixes the dam?" He will repair the breach he creates but the dam itself is not fixable without a complete tear out and rebuild. It has no core and is nearly inaccessible due to being heavily forested both on and around.

He came highly recommended by the NRCS agent but I will ask him for a couple of references and I will get everything in writing before any work begins.

What will happen if the dam breaks after he fixes the rest ? You migh ask him what about adding the extra dirt to the front side (water side) of the dam to reduce the chances of a breach due to the trees.

That was my original point. Why renovate the pond and not fix the dam? However, everyone's opinion has been to leave the dam alone because of the cost and difficulty of replacing the entire thing. It is over 500' long and about 20 feet high with a heavily forested 2:1 slope on the back and dense woods directly behind and to add insult to injury, the dam is on my property line too.

Getting to and fixing the dam would cost five times what the renovation is going to cost. It is simply not in the budget.

I will definitely ask him about adding dirt to the front and see if that is possible. We were not planning on doing a complete drain though, so the access will be limited to whatever remains above the water line after we drain it down to just below the channel level.

From your conversation with him, once the pond is drained, dried and dam face inspected; I am sure you will both want to discuss what is found on the dam face and proceed accordingly. It sounds like a good and logical initial step. I doubt the pond will get dried out until late summer if weather patterns remain consistent. Price per hr. sounds correct for the southeast.

We're all on your team, Anna. We all want the same bottom line conclusion: a hole that holds water, creating a pond that will last for generations.
By your description, I like Ronnie, too. The only part that made me shy was your descriptive statement:
You've just received the official disclaimer. I believe that he will deliver every penny's worth of your investment, hour for hour. If the pond leaks or won't hold water when he is done, what was it worth?
I know how you feel. I have been on this forum a number of years and had my best ideas challenged when I thought for sure I was on the right track. Moreover, emotionless text can come across as negative and/or agressive in nature. Don't read it wrong; it's truly meant to be positive. If it was outta line, the rest of us would letcha know.
That being said, Ewest is correct. Check his references. Have him provide similar fixes on other's ponds.
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One last thing....
Tell us more about this "dam on the property line". Is the entire dam on your property, or is a portion of it spilling over next door?

This image might give some clarity as to the lay of the land. The dam is right at or within 10 feet of our property line. I did not take the other post negatively but I am a bit frustrated. First I wanted to fix the dam and then everyone said just renovate. Now that I am planning on renovating, the dam is coming into question again. I'm certainly willing to spend the money to make it as right as reasonably possible but I still have to build a house too. If I invest $35-$60K in a complete dam rebuild I will have to occupy the love shack!!



The dam does hold water to a certain level. It is only above that level that it leaks, so if we dig out below that level and patch anything obvious, the dam should be ok we think. At the very least I may have to drop the static water level by a foot or two to keep the leaking under control.

First I wanted to fix the dam and then everyone said just renovate.
Most were looking at the budget.

At the very least I may have to drop the static water level by a foot or two to keep the leaking under control.
Based on your specified use of the pond, and with the upper end sculpted and deepened, that should easily be doable.

Dont worry; be happy.

Theo, while adding to your relevant posts, can you summon the Wizard?

There's no place like PB
There's no place like PB
There's no place like PB
There's no place like PB

Thank you all for the advice. Your knowledge is valuable and I truly appreciate your sharing it with me. As life would have it, I have several major things going on simultaneously and wanted to put this one thing to bed, so to speak. I apologize if my post seemed rude or my answers were short.

My best and most beloved dog tore the ligaments in his knee and had to have emergency surgery Friday($2k), my mom is having surgery Tuesday and my hubby is having a major surgery a week from Tuesday at UAB in Birmingham and we will be gone for at least a week, maybe longer. Needless to say my stress level is a wee bit much right now.

On a brighter note, a customer of mine has found me some reliable day laborers and we are going to begin clearing the brush from the dam tomorrow. I hope to get some pictures and to post them so that you can see our progress. So far I have been cutting limbs and saplings with a 12' power saw and having to drag them out alone. It is slow going and Hubby is in no shape to help right now. The aid of some additional hands will be much appreciated. Seems like I was working and working and seeing very little progress.

Thanks again for everything. You guys are wonderful.

Just found this image! It is from the US Geological Survey and was taken 2/18/1997. It shows how big the pond used to be. What a difference.

Wow, what a difference 12 years makes!

Good move with Ronnie.
Here are a few helpful hints, now that you have decided your approach.
Budget 25% more than what you expect to spend, for a "safety net." In 30 years of doing this stuff, I have never found a situation where all pitfalls and pratfalls can be reasonably predicted, simply because some of the "problems" are buried or haven't been identified, yet. Budgeting another $2,000 minimizes the emotions of "surprises."
One acre of dirt, one foot deep, is 1,667 cubic yards of material. Otto has told me many, many times that with a bulldozer the equivalent of a Caterpillar D-6, he can move about 2,000 cubic yards per day, as long as the soil is dry. An excavator can move much more.
Where are you planning to put the excavated dirt? If you didn't discuss this with Ronnie, you should. Earthmovers almost always want to move the dirt the shortest distance possible. That may be he intends to pile it up nearby and build you a ski slope. You probably talked with him about it, but if not, you should.
Regarding the dam, what it sounds like to me is that he sees how major the dam renovation would be and has figured out that you guys can excavated and make the pond bigger by leaving the leaky dam virtually alone and allowing the "leak down" elevation to become the new "full" and improve the pond by deepening it.
If that's good with you, it will be good with him.
Last, I do think it's a good idea to go look at some of his finished projects so you can visualize something similar. Often, an earthmover's idea of "finished" isn't always your idea of "finished." Looking at some of his projects is educational and he shouldn't be offended. He should be proud to show off his work.
You are tactful, we can tell. Just tell him you want to look at some of his work so you can see what he does.

Ya know, I'm kinda worried about a dirt guy with a spotlessly clean pickup. It just isn't natural.

Thanks! I never thought of the ski slope! What a great idea! Not sure how much use I would get out of it in Alabama but I am sure we can come up with something. Actually we have a portion of our property that is washed out and are planning to put the excess there if possible. Some of it will be used to sculpture the bank more and lessen the slope, it is quite steep now.

He has an excavator and a D-5. According to your figures on dirt removal, I think the 2 week time line is doable after the pond dries out. We are only going down 6-8'.

Yesterday Phil Carter who teaches the pond management course came over and found where the water is leaking out of the backside of the dam. The leak is about 10' long and you can actually see the water perking up through the soil. It was a bit hard to figure out at first because there is a natural wetland behind one section of the dam. Now that we know the approximate area of the leak we can try to identify it from the front once the pond is drained down.

Bob, thank you again for the advice.

Yeah, but Ronnie himself was plenty dirty!

It is difficult to get a good honest person to make a pond. I was taken and one of my neighbors said he knew of a good pond maker and I just picked a bad business person. The guy is probably honest but he low balled to get the job then he was over his head. With a pond developer if you do not pay the extra they can short change a person so they will not loose money. This is about a person that is not totally honest. So I payed for what I received. Every person is not dishonest and some will doi the job very well.

If they have quoted an hourly rate, then get into a renovation and find things not as they perceive them, it can cost somewhat more. Things such as, more muck to remove than anticipated, having to dig deeper for good clay, needing to use a compactor on the floor etc. If they are good on the equipment and you can see that they ae spending their logged time moving dirt, I dont see a problem. I paid about 25% more than the estimate, but was pleased with the results. the dam on opposite side from spillway ran over, but the dam was level when finished. There was just more subsidence. We had already discussed them coming back in a couple of years when the muck dried out to redo the back side of the dam.

Anna,

I tried to read through your threads and find an answer to this question, but I didn't see it.

Why don't you drain the pond, let it dry in the hot summer, then have an excavator/dozer combo get in the bottom and dig clay to line the front side of the levee all the way to the top? If I were going to renovate an existing pond, this would be my approach. Once the pond is drained, you can dig a few trenches in the bottom and pump out the water that seeps in. This should help the drying process. As long as there is good clay in the bottom or around the edges, this is the approach I would take.

It would be much less costly to line the front side of the levee than to excavate a larger hole in the shallower end of the pond basin. 2 - 3 feet of compacted clay across the front of the levee should seal any leaks and you can start over once the pond fills.

That is a great idea. We are supposed to breach the levee in the next couple of weeks to get the pond drained and start the drying process. I will see if this is an option. Only thing, according to the soil maps, there is no clay. I would probably have to truck this in and that might be costly. But it is definitely something to consider. I'll see if this is a doable thing and it would solve the problem of the leaks. Thanks!!