Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose SMB/RES-Plus Pond Concept

Congratulations, Bronzeback devotees, I am on the hook. Now help reel me in.

I have been searching for a couple of years for the optimum use of a 2nd, smaller pond which is somewhere in my future (if we are all very lucky, I may be bugging you with more advanced questions about pond #2 in a year). This will be roughly 1/3 acre in size, have about a 5 acre watershed, and be as deep as I need to (can) make it for the finalized stocking plan. The pond will be in partial shade in the morning and in complete shade in the afternoon, so I think it may run a little bit cooler than my existing 1 acre pond with no shade.

SMB and RES are two neat species which tend to disappear in ponds with LMB and BG, respectively. This is reportedly more of a problem with SMB. Based on research info from ewest and known temperatures in my main pond, I think SMB will be able to live in this 2nd pond through the Summer (given aeration). I will be feeding the HSB, BG, and perhaps a few feed trained RES in this pond.

I have the following goals for pond #2:
1) RES brood pond to obtain Redear stock to add the main pond and maintain a noticeable RES presence there long term.
2) Home for Male-only BG.
3) Place to do an initial, one-time growout of HSB from small fingerlings (3"-4") to a size large enough to place in main pond and have them survive predation from adult LMB.
4) Have nice fishing for small to large RES (not necessarily trophy-sized) and trophy-sized Male BG.

I had been thinking of using HSB as the sole predator in this pond, and figured that I could transfer LMB from the main pond if additional predation was needed. But it occurred to me that it might be possible to stock small (3"-4") SMB in with the startup HSB and have 1) a breeding population of Smallmouths, some of which could be transferred to the main pond for a bonus fish there, and 2) smaller predator mouths (per fish size) than if LMB were used. The latter might make it possible grow out smaller intermediate sized HSB fingerlings to a size large enough to safely transfer them to the main pond than if the small pond had LMB (instead of needing 10"-12" HSB, perhaps the next size down might suffice).

Yes, this is all a lot of predators, but remember I am primarily interested in big BG and RES and like my bass numerous and a little hungry. I don't want to push the limits on biomass and risk a fishkill, but stunted bass is not a problem. Also, any RESxBG hybrids which fate may throw my way will be cherished (even awaited) freaks.

My main questions are:
1) Can a breeding population of SMB be maintained with a RES forage base in just 1/3 acre?
2) Can SMB provide sufficient predation to keep RES from being horribly stunted? (I will fish and remove small RES frequently if needed, and plan to shape the small pond so as to allow the use of seining to help reduce small fish numbers.)

Comments?

Theo check out the thread i started "thousands of sunfish fry" you will find it interesting....SMB and resbreasted sunfish combo its in questions and observations.

Some thoughts.

RES reproduce at 1/2 or less of the rate of BG

As far as I know (and I looked for Dave W.'s RES vs PS article in PB) there is no indication of anyone observing RES stunting and that was set out in his article.

Dave thinks the RES /SMB combo can be very good . I do also.

That is not exactly what you described ie male BG and HSB.

BG and RES cross and backcross. Crosses are 98% +- male.

I don't think that will matter as the traits set out below indicate the cross if it occurs will lower the reproductive rate . In crossing the pair have fewer offspring than either BG or RES couples. Thank you Bill C. for pointing that out.

With SMB and HSB you may be forage short. Think about starting a population of GShiners from your other pond. Adds a different niche (high in the water column and eats differently ) to the pond which should help HSB and SMB. Craws are also a good idea as RES and SMB like crustations . FH to start.

SMB reproduction is a real trick. Bill has posted on it . If I find anything I will pass it on.


Points by others.

Bill on BG X RES crosses:

I noted that the numbers of hybrids produced were pretty low compared to the reproductive potential of both species. Since
female RES were used in both studies, fecundity would be expectedly lower than if similar sized female bluegills were used. Carlander reported RES females at 8"+ produced a mean number of 20,000 - 26000 eggs per fish whereas bgill females produced a mean of 58,000 eggs (38k-81K). The Krumholtz paper reported a harvest of 16000 hybrids from 8 pairings vs Ricker's paper reported 46,000 hybrids from 10-15 pairings.


Childers Wheat and Whitt :

Gametes stripped from male red-ear sunfish R and female bluegills B were used in the laboratory
to produce RB F1, hybrids which were grown to maturity in a farm pond (CHILDERS).
Six mature male F1, hybrids were placed in each of two east-central Illinois ponds containing no
other fish. Female bluegills were added to one pond, and female red-ear sunfish to the other.
Successful reproduction occurred in both ponds, and the backcross progeny were sampled by
seining when they were 4-5 months old.

Ricker :

The F1 hybrids included only 2 percent
females. They have spawned successfully, however, and in two ponds
produced F1 broods in what seem to be fairly good numbers per female involved.
The F2 brood has been exclusively male, but only 13 have been
examined so far.

Check your mail.

I forgot to mention above that I plan on stocking FH and Gambusia 6 months to a year ahead of the predators. I do not really want to use GShiners in this pond because I want the emphasis on bream; I'm trying to guess ahead of time if I can have a sustaining population of SMB predators co-resident.

Figuring it will be a "predator-rich" environment (wrt available food, long-term), I think I can catch enough hungry xxB's to keep them from starving. HSB will be pellet fed until they are big enough to transfer, then moved out as they are caught.

If I can't manage to get the SMB to reproduce (I saw Cody's nice talk on SMB spawning pans and need to save it), that makes some things simpler (better fed bass) and some more complicated (restocking predators), but really wouldn't be much different than if I went HSB-only.
I think.

From a study in the Black Bass Symp. by AFS.

SMB nested in water .5 to 3 meters where the substrate contained nest material where at least 40% of the particles were 6.4 to 149 mm in dia. ( .25 to 5.9 inches in dia.).

More later. Very good and detailed study.

Theo, I don't think water temp will be a concern with your SMB. Mine seem to do fine, and I had temps get over 90F last year. I have some up to 17" right now, and they seem to be doing fine. If you can find pellet trained SMB, you will love them.

Theo- as NEDOC says SMB can tolerate at least water temps up to 90F. Fenders Fish Hatchery near Baltic OH usually has quality SMB fingerlings in the fall. They can be easily fairly trained in a net pen or cage to accept pellets befor the winter "sets in". A small shoal 10'x10' or larger of coarse gravel is all a couple male SMB need for a couple successful spawns. Remaining males may nest in hard pan pond bottom. You do not need very much nesting success in a 0.3 ac pond. I think with a little management help the SMB could control RES numbers. Add some papershell crayfish for SMB.

HSB in this new pond can be primarily pellet eaters and have little impact on the forage base.

In your forage base stocking plan I would strongly consider using bluntnose minnows and or fatheads. Bluntnose will survive SMB predation much better and longer than fatheads. I have bluntnose broodstock available.

I would be very surprised if you produce and hybrid BGxRES if you have male and female RES present.

Recently I have been feeding Pellets to my fish - Mainly the FH minnows come up and eat. Recently I have had the SMB hitting the surface right after I put out the pellets. I thought wow what a good deal, I am getting them to hit the pellets. It was fun to watch. After watching further I did not have the SMB hitting the pellets, ....... They were hitting the FH minnows that were up eating the pellets. Thus in a round about way I was and am training them, but at the expense of the FHs.

This is a smallie I caught in June '07. He's about 17 or 18" long and maybe 2.5-3lbs. Bait: Golden Shiner



Here's a HSB I caught this past weekend. He's about 16-17" and maybe 2+lbs. Bait: Golden Shiner


I've had the smallies for a while, and I would guess that this HSB was stocked a few months ago (at about 15-16 inches). Last fall, I put in a few HSB that were a little bit smaller, but I never saw HSB again until after the most recent stocking this past spring. Honestly since the day these HSB were stocked (around late April/early May '06), I have not seen them or caught one until this past weekend.

My pond has tons of juvenile fish and golden shiners schooled up in open water. I caught (5) HSB this past weekend, and my buddy caught two. All of them were structure-related catches, and they were mostly isolated bites; ie/ if I had one on, my buddy would throw a shiner in the vicinity, and no second fish. I did catch all the fish in a total of three areas (one fish in one area, two fish in a second area, and two fish in a third area), but over a course of three days fishing.

Also, I know I have had successful SMB recruitment. I saw several isolated SMB that were 3", maybe 4". I'm certain these were from a SMB spawn in spring '05. About three years back, I had stocked some smaller SMB, but the smallest was 3" back then. I don't think they could be from this year's spawn.

Last spring '06 and Spring '05, I could see the smallies spawning on beds. In spring '05, I saw two big smallies on a bed along with one big LMB; they were all just hanging on this bed, and various bluegill kept diving into the bed (eating frye I think). I thought I was in Utah.

Interesting Sunil, I have been catching a few of my smallies here lately off a large BG bedding area on the dam. You don't suppose they would raiding the BG eggs and fry? Maybe they are getting some private tutorial lessons from the older and wiser BG?

Theo, I love bronze backs and have caught several in the 5-6 # class, but are not a consideration for our hot water ponds.
HSB will make sissies out of your smallies...

Nice fish Sunil - love the pictures...

That's the most football-ish Smallie I have ever seen, George.

Brilliant!I'll bet five dollars right now you'll never have overpopulation problems with this scenario. You may even be able to design the pond so that the easiest areas to seine are the same areas that you feed the fish. You'll be all over those RES like a cheap suit.

Why not incorporate all you've learned about PBRAS to buy inexpensive fingerling smallies and get them bigger and feed trained at the same time?

Very tempting Bruce since I doubt the smallies we stocked this spring will have much natural recruitment with both LMB and BG already present in our pond. We have recently posted our new fishing regulation sign. LMB 12" to 15" are unprotected, please enjoy a fresh meal. All sizes of SMB are protected, let David know if you catch one. We have already removed 230 LMB from the pond this year, average size 1# plus or about 24#'s per acre. This should give our SMB a little breathing room but will also increase the small BG numbers which will hamper the natural reproduction of the SMB & hopefully the LMB too. One thing I have noticed with an increase in mid-range BG numbers is a noticable decrease in the number of snails in the pond. In particular the larger of the two species of snails is absent. I assume that as the food for BG get more competitive, sucking snails out of the shell becomes a more common occurance. There are still snails present so some RES are likely to get stocked this fall, maybe even some pumkinseeds if I can find them. When we were lot more LMB heavy and there were very few BG in the 2" to 8" range there were snails all over the place. Now there are empty snail shells all over the place, there must be 75-100 bleached out snail shells in every BG bed right now.

OK back to the RES/SMB concept.

The thought occurred to me after Bill Cody mentioned feed training SMB in a cage. If I had it to do right now, I believe I'd buy 150% or so of the SMB fingerlings I wanted to stock and split them 50-50 between the new pond and the PBR. That way I couldn't kill them all. If I got too many, I could put a few in the big pond after they had grown.

Since it will happen downstream, I may have either more or less confidence in my PBR skills, and adjust numbers accordionly.

This has been a great discussion, guys, and I am feeling very upbeat about this line of stocking.

So am I, because it's so similar to my situation that I stand to learn from your experience.

Hooray Pond Boss!

Haha, now you know how I feel Bruce. I am always trying to learn from your experience and save myself the time and money.

Theo Gallus - It would be real nice to hear an update how the Pond #2 is progressing after 5 years - Please?

An update from T.Gallus and his SMB pond follows: Smallies have reproduced every year they could. The earliest natives are hitting 9" - 10" and I am transferring most of them to the other pond as they are caught. The stockers have reached 15"+, would probably be doing better except that ...

The YP have stubbornly refused to spawn (even though many are 11" - 12" and eating pellets well); I'm trying adding aglime and electric aeration into the mix this year, and there seems to be less extensive FA than I have had prior Springs - maybe that will help. I have seen gravid females this year and last year. Suggestions welcome.

Best serendipity is that it has become a major BGxRES hybrid producer. They take pellets aggressively and last year they were my major eating sunfish. I have also transferred a few hundred of them (as fingerlings 3" - 6") to my older pond each of the last three years, and the ones that survived LMB predation are eating pellets and reaching eating size there this year.