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Joined: Sep 2008
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I've had three acres cleared for pasture recently and found that the bottom of the draw has a spring where I will never get any pasture to grow as it will always be wet (sank two dozers while clearing). Beside that, my entire 13 acres drains into that one area and then on into a ravine w/ a creak about 1/4 mile away. Seems like the perfect place for a small pond. The guy who did the clearing said he could do the pond for $6,500 with a finished depth of 8-10' at the dam and one surface acre. This is all great, but I would like to actually have it engineered for liability purposes. Everything I've read has said to contact the NRCS/SCS and you can get an engineer to design it. Every time I call the NRCS or USDA in Greensboro, NC they tell me that there is NO such government assistance that I need to pay a private engineer to do this. Can anyone point me in the right direction who has had a pond built in NC within the past couple years? As I understood this, it was a federal program managed at the state level.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Asgrd, first welcome to the forum. I spoke with a retired NRCS man today. He retired 2 months ago, so info is current. What you have been told IS correct. To have an "engineered" dam you would have to hire an engineer. An engineered dam is only required if the height of the dam exceeds 35 feet in height. This info only pertains to Federal requirements, I don't know about state or local regs. Unless your NRCS guy is lazy, his job is to come and drill core samples and find the best location for you to place a dam AND if he is not lazy can recommend qualified equipment operators and even supervise the construction---That is what my local retired NRCS agent did for me and others. The services that I just mention the NRCS CAN do are all free. I hope this helps a little. For a WHOLE lot more info on a pond, get the book Perfect Pond....Want One? here..... Pond Boss Books. I can't imagine needing an engineer for a dam as small as what 1 acre would require. Usually an engineered dam is for VERY VERY large lakes. Also, if the area you had cleared was dry BEFORE clearing, the spring probably has very little pressure. If you put the spring below where you want your water level, the spring MAY act as a drain. Best of luck and PLEASE keep us updated. Pictures are always great as well!
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Thanks Rainman, that clears things up. The spring area was always soft and wet, though it only had standing water in the basin area after a rain. Now I'm wondering if maybe I shouldn't have the dam moved forward of the spring area(right now it would be off the front toe about five feet). That at least would give me someplace to push the rest of my slash that didn't burn since I can't do anything else with that land. That though, would knock about .25 acres out of my proposed basin area and I would either have to move the basin up or accept a smaller size...
How small can one effectively manage for a Bass/bluegill pond? One acre seemed as small as one should realistically go. But it seems like .75 surface acres could be handled as long as the depth was sufficient and harvesting maintained. I will be fertilizing and utilizing a colony of black soldier flies for some additional forage. The BSF colony is mainly to get rid of the offal from my free range chicken slaughter, not primarily for forage, though they should be getting about 4# a day of grubs off the colony. I would think that fertilization and an initial stocking of 50 F1 bass, 400 CN, 100 RE and 50 CC would be sufficient for .75 acres if I move the dam up.
I'll have to check out that book.
Thanks,
Eddie Aday
Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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Asgard
Glad to have you on the forum. In defence of the government most of the places I have seen they are over worked and under paid. The waste we are watching in the news is not present in the agriculture programs.
Your dozer guy should be able to help you out as far as laying out your dam. If he sank the equipment during the clearing he will know what to expect.
Like Rainman said keep us posted. There is a lot of good information in the magazine and on the forum.
Otto
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Eddie, one can manage BG & LMB in a pond notably smaller than 1 acre in size. If you are pursuing trophy LMB, the number that a small pond can support is going to also be small. If you are after more of a balanced pond or want large BG, ponds down to at least 1/4 acre can produce nice fishing with decent catch rates IMHO.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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I'm not looking for trophy-size LMB or bream, just decently aggressive fish in the 2-3 pound range for LMB and above average BGs and REs. No one will be fishing the pond except for my family and it is fenced so the chances of poaching are pretty slim. Not that I wouldn't let my neighbors fish, but most of them already have their own ponds. I am kind of wondering about the whole fertilize or not to fertilize issue though. I was dead set on doing it, but after doing some reading I'm not sure. All the surface run off is from my pastures (organic, no fertilizer)which have alpaca and free-range chickens. All of my fishing is catch and release except what will be required for management. I would also like to use the pond for swimming, which is why I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't fertilize. For actual food fish, I intend to raise one 4' cage of trout through the winter and a 4' cage of Tilapia through the summer. Those fish will be pellet fed. Most of the cull fish will probably go to my livestock dogs who love fish. I'm thinking I may have to go deeper than 3' on the banks though if I don't fertilize (except the swimming area)...I'd like to keep the weeds down and I'd like to avoid dye, keep things natural as possible.
Thanks for your inputs.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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Eddie, I went to the local Soil & Water Conservation office when I built my pond. They came out & took core samples & shot the lines. I didn't use them after that. What I read on the NC State site said any dam over 25' or if it backs up more than 10 ac or if there are dwelings, roads etc below the dam an engineer is needed. This was in 04 & the cost of an engineer was going to be $10,000. If the spring stays wet all year & you can keep it in shallow water it might be worth the chance to try to utilize it. There is also the posibllity of sealing it off. Get & read the book suggested .. best money you'll ever spend, & take some pic's of the area to post on here & ask questions then.
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner
If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military! Ric
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I'm not looking for trophy-size LMB or bream, just decently aggressive fish in the 2-3 pound range for LMB and above average BGs and REs. You can do that in 3/4 acre. Local soil and experts will have the best input on whether or not to fertilize, but I think you can build the pond, stock it, and see how your natural fertility is, then decide if you want to fertilize. ... free-range chickens ... Those can be dangerous, if you chew gum.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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... free-range chickens ... Those can be dangerous, if you chew gum. [/quote] How's that? Did you have a back chicken experience... This is actually my second attempt with the chickens...before we decided to free-range them they where closer to the house, outside of the pasture fencing which is 4x4 no-climb. I have a pit bull and boxer who apparently both hate chickens more than anything on the planet...won't chase squirrels, rabbits or anything else...but those chickens man... from our first six we have two left. Our second flock (25) is now free-ranging with the alpacas and the house dogs don't go in the pastures so all is well.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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Just out of curiosity Ric, how big is your pond. $10K seems like a large sum of money considering it wasn't even going to cost that much to get my pond built and that was with diesel at $4/gal for road fuel.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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I had to go 25' to get 2.5ac of water. The price an engineer charges for his stamp is not relative to digging dirt. I thought it was steep too but it's his stamp, his seal of approval, his but on the line if something goes bad. Anyway since I stopped at 25' & there's nothing below of concern so I didn't have to go that route.
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner
If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military! Ric
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... free-range chickens ... Those can be dangerous, if you chew gum. How's that? Did you have a back chicken experience... My In-Laws used to keep chickens. One day at their place I lost my chewing gum and found it six times.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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Ric, I'll have to see what the SCS guy says...the drainage ravine goes past my neighbors house but it's about 200ft laterally and about 10-15' higher in elevation than the bottom of the draw in elevation, from the back of the dam its about 300yds straight line distance. Even with a complete damn failure all the water would go through the woods and down the ravine to the creek. The whole area from the proposed damn (west property line), north to red line and east just past the edge of the map has already been grubbed and cleared. Right now it just has three big piles of slash that need the remaining logs cut for firewood and then burned. I need to get a balance of as much pasture and as big as close to a one acre pond I can get. I do have pictures from after the clearing, but I'm in Iraq and they are on the camera. I will post them later. I know it isn't "my pond"...my house in FL has a six acre residential lake which the back yard dumps into. It's literally 75ft from the backdoor to the shoreline. I got spoiled living there. elevation
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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I saw a discussion about people's choice for pond boats...here is my choice...if anyone wants one let me know. These didn't come from a pond either but I got on a roll with the pictures...
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Lunker
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Nice pic's. Are you in Iraq with the military?
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner
If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military! Ric
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Not anymore...I came over with the Army in '03/'04...been coming over as a civilian since '05.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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This is the topo that I'm looking at, but topo compared to actual surface contour is a little off.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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It looks likes you have the pond placed in the only possible spot on the property. My concern is not a failure as much as if it will get full. Otto
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I get a lot of water and the entire property save for the SE corner drains to that area. You can't see it on the topo, but about 30' above that north property line is a raised road bed for my neighbors drive which funnels all that water down towards the dam. What I actually have is a "u" shaped draw with both sides rising to about 12'-15' on either side. The dam will actually run due N/S and be about 240' long and the basin will extend 180' E/W at full pool. I have thought about the possibility though, of not getting enough water from run-off so I'm not planning on going very deep, 8' at the dam for about 50% of the bottom and the balance will be sloped. I'd like to be able to get a good draw-down in the winter for weed control and to concentrate the forage. I've done the math out of the 590 and I'm pretty sure I'm ok. We are planning on dropping another well just for the livestock/barn needs which I may tie into a waterfall type of aerator, just in case. I also still need to get the NRCS guys out when I'm home to get their opinion. I don't really have a choice, I either have a pond or I have a big wet mucky area that I can't do anything with...and I REALLY want one. You are right though, the position is my only option for placement at least for a watershed-pond. I have some pics on the camera which I'm going to post whenever my wife sends them. I'm going to start burning some of the slash off when I get home next month, it's been drying for almost a year, so hopefully I'll get a good burn out of it. The piles are about 15' high, 20' wide and about 50' long... I think about ten gallons of kerosene will get things going well.
Last edited by Asgrd Pndkper; 09/24/08 04:00 PM.
Eddie Aday Asgard Farm Home of Asgard Alpacas
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Fingerling
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Fingerling
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Pond construction in North Carolina has become tougher and tougher. We run into lots of resistance with government agencies, and quite honestly, there is a lot of confusion between the different divisions (state/federal/county). Proximity to blue line streams is a potential challenge for you as well as the wet areas. These may be considered wetlands that cannot be impacted. We have lots of experience with pond construction in North Carolina. Feel free to give us a call and we can talk about it in more detail, or just shoot me an email. I know it can be frustrating, but we'll try to help you achieve your goals. Mitchell Morton Fisheries Manager Foster Lake & Pond Management http://www.fosterlake.commitch@fosterlake.com
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Mitchell, Do you know of a source for Yellow Perch?
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner
If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military! Ric
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Fingerling
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Fingerling
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Fingerling
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Ric, I should be able to get during the cool weather, probably early next year (march). I've had trouble with the few places in NC that claim to grow them. I'm working on it though. We don't have many orders for them, so it's not a regular stock item.
Hope you're doing well! Mitch
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If you're able to get some please let me know.
Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner
If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military! Ric
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Ric are they native to your lakes and streams around there? I was curious. We have YP in nearly every body of water around here, even a muddy old creek up the road has them. Just wondered if they were local to your area too. I worked for a company over in Asheville, NC for 5 years and those folks were nutty for trout, appraently they had a lot of good trout water around, thing is I worked for a real weenie of a boss who didn't fish, so it was all work and no play when I was in town.
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