Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose New pond & Want Redears as the main??

Just bought land with 1/2 to 1 ac pond site. I'm really curious about a limited c.cat - primary redear population. Will fatheads thrive with these 2 as predators? My initial thinking, from reading, the res is a 2ndary producer (compared to BG) and the c.cat is a 2ndary predator (compared to bass). Hope this ties in with the res only thread.

Really interesting question. My first inclination would be to say that not only might the fatheads thrive, they may actually overthrive. It's not likely that the CC will be an efficient predator on the fatheads, and it's even less likely that the RES will pressure the fatheads. My guess is that the fatheads would tie up the vast majority of biomass in the pond, without allowing the RES YOY (young-of-the-year) to have access to the invertebrate population. End result, almost no RES recruitment, tons of FHM, poor RES growth rates, good CC growth rates. Two questions come to mind for me to further explore the question.

1. Would you consider leaving FHM out of the mix?

2. Are you considering supplemental feeding?

Does anybody have good redear sunfish numbers and big ones (10"-12") in pond water that has 12" - 15" visibilities?
I think the effectiveness of CC to control fatheads will be dependent of density of CC and if CC are fed pellets. The more you feed cats pellets the fewer fatheads they will eat. So you do have a little control of this aspect. It might not take as many CC to control fatheads as Bruce and I think. Someone needs to try this and see what happens. WRW? I think the CC could control fatheads but then the desity of CC required to do this would make the pond too muddy for the RES to effectively eat their preferred food items. RES are sight feeders. I am not sure that RES will be very successful in a turbid pond. Sediment turbidity as it increases will also increasingly suppress the phytoplankton the basis of the food chain thus lowering overall natural productivity of the pond.

WRW might try this combination and if it doesn't work and fatheads get too abundant add either some hybrid striped bass or bass of a single sex, just males or females. This way you have control of how may extra predators are present. Thoughts Bruce?

Those are some really interesting points, Bill. My first thought was that I'd really like to see WRW try this so we could all learn from it, but was reluctant to say so, because fathead minnows would be difficult to eradicate if they became the lion's share of the biomass at some point. But you're right that HSB or all female LMB could be added incrementally afterward, and you could end up with a nice bonus, rapidly growing, but controllable predator. I'd start really, really light on the channel cats, though. Maybe this would keep turbidity to a minimum, and keep the zooplankton population propped up.

Is there any literature on stomach samples taken from big RES? We all know that bluegill will use fatheads when available, but I've always assumed, for no scientific reason, that RES don't have this same tendency.

Bruce - I assume larger (>7") RES will eat small minnows; meat is meat, snails are meat is my reasoning. Cecil in his post above, considers RES more predatious than bgill. RES are probably fairly opportunistic feeders, eating whatever if most common, but preferring snails. I know of no detailed feeding studies for RES. Ewest may find this and do a little electronic searching for us. I am not sure how much Dr. Willis knows about RES since they are primarily a southern species. I will do a search through Carlander and see what he reports. More later.

A simple way that the fatheads could be thinned or eliminated is with a mild or normal dose of copper sulfate. Minnows are least tolerant of CuSO4 (0.3ppm Cu - very sensitive right above trout 0.1ppm), then CC, then RES -Bgill and lastly LMB who tolerate 2ppm Cu. Also the fatheads could be trapped or seined and sold as bait or pond stocking if a bait dealers permit is obtained. One might be able to trade fatheads to a hatchery for extra RES or CC. NOTE: Copper dosing for fatheads could also kill a few cats trapped in the CuSO4 cloud. Since CuSO4 is a heavy metal and the copper ions (copper carbonate) are stable in the pond basin/sediment I do not recommend using CuSO4 very often if ever. A one time treatment to reduce fatheads could work. Bass would do a better and healthier job at thinning fatheads.

If WRW or anyone tries this fish combination please come back to the forum and help educate us on this type of stocking and its success.

A provision for the potential of Channel Cat spawning may need to be considered also.

Sunil - In your "provision" do you want CC spawning or not? Why or why not?

Bill, I meant a method to control potential CC populations assuming that the CC's were able to spawn.

I did not know if RES or adult CC would eat CC frye and/or juveniles.

I think you may have identified the magic ingredient for success being a secondary non-reproducing predator like one sex of LMB or maybe HSB.

The secondary non-reproducing predator would have to be effective at feeding in all areas of a pond to prevent recruitment.

I think you guys are right. The non-reproducing predator might grow huge. Most stupendously big fish are produced by situations where competition for an abundant prey source is limited over a period of several years.

I think I'd stock FH with my RES and CC if I were WRW (IIRC, ASAP or PDQ)(Sorry, I got a little carried away initially :rolleyes: ). IF the FH seemed to be overabundant, I doubt it would take very many HSB or (single sex) LMB/SMB to put a big hurt on the FH numbers, given how quickly FH are usually eliminated in a LMB/BG pond.

In short, you guys were right on top of things (as would be expected) while I was Honey-Doing this afternoon.

I am wondering how successful CC would spawns would be in a pond if there were no suitable structures for them, i.e. a bare bottomed pond. I think they would probabaly not even lay eggs and then reabsorb the eggs if nesting sites were not available.

I don't think the CC would be very successful spawning either, in the absence of spawning structures and the presence of (even only) RES to eat CC fry.

Bill :

Just got back from Ga. I would have thought by now someone would have posted pics. You should have seen Dave D. netting fish off the front of Greg's electrofishing boat.

On to the questions. We have good numbers of large RES (up to 14 in.). We have good visa. most of the year but from May to late Sept. the plankton bloom keeps it between 10in. and 24in. more toward 18in. With the RES feeding deeper in the water column where the water is clear (but lees light due to plankton bloom) they seem to stay fat. I don't know what they eat at the ponds as we have never seen a fish with grubs out of any of these lakes. My guess is other snails plus a bunch of other stuff including fish. While I often catch BG on small bass crankbaits I don't recall ever catching a RES on one (I did catch a BG x RES cross on one though). I will check on the questions above and report the results.

How much does a 14 inch redear weigh?

Enough to break your fingers when they smash into the boat rail while you were not paying attention and holding a small cane pole with one hand. On a digital scale 2.7 lbs. One with the pole one with the shock boat, different ponds.

Are there any pictures? I'd just like to see what they start to look like at that size. That's truly awesome.

Standard weight for RES of 14" is 2.05 lbs; 32.8oz. At 2.7 lbs that fish was a plump one. RES are known to favor live baits. One reason they may not hit small lures is the RES probably closely examine most food items before deciding to taste it. Snails are not known for their speedy get aways. Not much chasing required when you eat mostly snails.

Bill :

Posting this table in hopes it will work. This is from the edges of Lake Pont. La. which is in varying degrees brackish with fresh water streams incomming. Most + in col 3 are RES food items.


TABLE 2.---Food items of four species of Lepomis from Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana.
L. L. L. L.
Food ilems macrochiras panctatus microlophus gulosus

Porifera
Ephydatia fiuviatilis + + +

Ectoprocta
Membranipora sp. +

Annelida
Polychaeta + + +

Mollusca
Littoridina sphinctosoma + + +
Rangia cuneata + +
Congeria leucophaeta + + +

Arthropoda
Arachnida +

Insecta
Baetidae +
Coenagrionidae +
Locustidac + +
Coccinellidae + + +
Chironomidae + + +
Tabanidae + +
Culicidae +
Formicidac + + +

Crustacea
Calanoida +
Balanus subalbidus + + +
Mysidopsis almyra + + +
Leptochelia rapaX + +
Cassidinideas p. + + +
Sphaeroma terebrans +
Cyathura polita + + +
Gammarus sp. 1 + + +
Gammarus sp. 2 + + +
Corophium louisianum + + +
Corophium lacustre +
Melita sp. + + +
Palaemonetes sp. +
Callinectes sapidus + +
Rhithropanopeus harrisii + + +
Procambarus sp. +

Osteichthyes
Lucania parva + +
Gambusia affinis +
Syngnathuss covelli +
Lepomis macrochirus
Gobiosoma bosci +

Chlorophyat
Cladophora sp. + + +

Trachaeophyat
Ceratophyllums p. + +
Vallisneria sp. + + +

Organic material + + +

ewest - any idea how old the fish were that were sampled for gut contents?

Bill :

These tables don't post well. Check your mail.


TABLE 1.--Length class distribution of fish with food from the three stations in Lake Pontchartrain,
Louisiana during summer and winter. Total-length classes (mm) A, 0-49; B, 50-99; C, 100-149; D, 150-199; E, 200 +

B-8 C-34 D-19 E-2 B-0 C-8 D-3 A-0
B-3 C-4 D-0 B-1 C-2 D-1

To start, Bill, Theo, & Bruce & others are most informative, thanks. Wish I could add a step by step write up of my future RES/CC pond, just unfortunately, it's 5 years out. Yet facinating on a discussion level; it begs ??s. As of now, seems a FH/RES spawn area is in (sorta). Perhaps 30 CC 8+", 150 RES 3-5", and 7lbs FH to start the 3/4 acre pond. Reasoning; Several states recommend a CC only stocking for small ponds. I assume the CC spawn is limited or fry controlled via cannibalism. Some view 2lb+ 15"+ CC as rather aggressive predators if not pellet fed. Larger CC also take bream on a trotline. Several sites stated that larger RES would eat snails and small fish(?minnows). Hopefully, a few LMB & HSB could balance the FH if the CC fell short in their predation. OK, I'm a newbie, what downfalls are overlooked?

The only downside I see is that "5 years out" part. It looks like a good plan.

I think that plan will be interesting to watch and keep up with. My only general comment is that when it gets to the point of adding a second predator species (LMB ,SMB,HSB ) you need to be sure they are non-reproducing . Probably HSB or female only LMB or SMB. That mix of fish will not very well support a reproducing population of bass. In addition start early to find a source of 3-5 in. RES as they can be hard to locate.

Keep in mind that if CC do spawn in your pond you will need bass (LMB or SMB) to have much chance to keep them under control. There is a 1/2 acre pond near me that has no bass and gets too many small CC each year. Pond does have places for CC spawning and weeds for protection of young. Only other fish in the pond are minnows-shiners, yellow perch and a few HSB. Owner was told that CC would not spawn in the pond which is why he put them in.